Episode 15

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Published on:

15th Mar 2022

15. Leveling Up with Intrinsic Advertising

Joining me for this episode is Cary Tilds, Chief Strategy and Operations Officer at Frameplay. Cary and I discuss the future of advertising, how to make it a better experience for consumers, and why it's incredibly important to make it feel natural to not disturb the gaming experience. Cary explains to me that the combination of these factors is what forms intrinsic advertising, a way to tell stories that feels good for both the consumer and the brand or company. We also dive into how advertising and storytelling is going to change with the development of Metaverse experiences.

Transcript
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Welcome to the meta woman podcast we address the

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issues, opportunities and challenges facing women in the

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development of the metaverse the biggest revolution since the

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internet itself. Every week we bring you conversations with top

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female talent and business executives operating in the

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gaming and crypto industries. Here's your host Lindsey, the

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boss poss the metal woman podcast starts now.

Lindsay Poss:

Hello, and welcome to the metal woman podcast part

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of the holodeck media Podcast Network. I'm your host, Lindsay

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the boss path from struggled to success. We're covering it all

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returning listeners, thank you so much for supporting the show.

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And for our new listeners. Welcome. I hope you enjoy. This

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week's guest is the wonderful Carrie tells chief strategy and

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operations officer at frame play. Carrie, welcome to the

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show. To start, I would love for you to give the audience a bit

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about yourself and your background so we can get to know

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you.

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Thank you so much. I was pretty excited when I've

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reached out to you because I'm a big fan. So I'm and fan girling

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right now, as I get to do this experience with you. So just

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that's worth noting, um, gosh, I've been in technology and

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innovation for a really long time, I worked for very large

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advertising companies like WPP, one of the most noteworthy roles

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I had was chief innovation officer there. And I was lucky

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enough to work at a joint venture owned by Ford Motor

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Company for a couple of years. And now I work at a in game ad

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tech company called frame play. So kind of crossed the gamut of

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of a lot of different things all with the same theme of

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innovation, and technology, creating beautiful experiences

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for brands, you know, startups etc.

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We just want to make a note for all the

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listeners out there that Kerry actually reached out to me via

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LinkedIn, and sent me a really warm and kind message. And I

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just as someone who hesitates to reach out, I very much

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appreciate when people make that first step. So thank you for

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doing that. Because it can often lead to really, really great

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things. And I'm so happy to have you on I'm so happy that you did

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that. Yeah. And

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that's connections are are like that, right? When you

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just, you know, try to make an authentic connection and say, I

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think we have mutual, you know, interests and why don't we get

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together and chat?

Lindsay Poss:

Yes, then I think that it can be often daunting to

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kind of take that step into reach out. But it also leads to

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really fruitful things. So I'm very appreciative that that you

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decided to do that. And I encouraged my listeners to do

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their shot on LinkedIn and reach out to some folks that are

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interested in what they do. And one of the other things that we

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talked about when I previously met you, and you've just gone

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into this a little bit with giving your background was that

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you, you kind of made this big jump into gaming. So you'd had

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the advertising experience and had done a lot with innovation

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and technology. But what made you want to kind of pursue

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gaming at a higher level, what opportunities Did you

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see, both certainly, I grew up with games in my life, I

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was very lucky. We didn't, you know, have a lot necessarily,

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but we certainly always had some sort of gaming, you know,

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console in our home. And so I you know, grew up as a young

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player age playing, you know, Donkey Kong and Frogger. And

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then obviously, it evolved from there. And I was one of those

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parents who was very proactive about having my kids play games.

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I always thought it was a fantastic creative environment

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and experience for them. So I was always a big fan of gaming.

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So there's that. But when I met the Met the founders of the

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company and heard about what they were doing, I immediately

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knew that this was a gap that hadn't yet been filled. I had

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been through all of the other digital channels before starting

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with the transition and growth and development of search, you

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know, in the years of mobile and social and video and

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programmatic and big data and all those good things. And I

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hadn't had an experience with some gaming early on when I led

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digital media strategy for Ford Motor Company. We did some early

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gamer gaming campaigns and I had a I had a brilliant strategist,

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I was lucky enough to work with my team. But those were, you

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know, hard coded type of experiences they were a little

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more challenging to deal with. And when I when I known about

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massive we had we had worked with massive here and there

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throughout the years. Throughout my career at the agency. I had

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that experience too. So I realized when I met the founders

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that this had been such an untapped marketplace, and I'm an

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innovator that's I've spent my whole career you know, filling

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filling the gap and helping people cross the chasm. So I

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knew right away that this was the opportunity for me all those

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roads led to me jumping in with both feet going from big

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companies to start up, it just made total sense.

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And how did you get into the position you're

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currently at with brain play?

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Yeah, it's funny when I met Jonathan, especially the

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CEO, I told him, this is actually another kind of career

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advice, I guess, I told him that he had a CMO who CMOS, luckily,

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I've been able to interact with them a little bit, he was

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stepping on to do something else. And they wanted me to take

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the CMO role. And I said, I certainly, you know, can do that

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I said, but I'm going to do five other things for you, too. And

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so we define the chief strategy and operations role, mainly

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because I really did want to lean in and do not just, you

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know, marketing, but also strategy and operations and set

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the company up for success, I had that background. So that was

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probably the third or fourth time in my career where I was

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lucky enough to just define the role that I thought I

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authentically do, that would bring the best out of me, and

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also allow me to help contribute, you know, to the

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company in the most meaningful way. So that's how that's how

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the role came to be. That's

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really great advice. One of our previous

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guests, at one time said, Never be your company's best kept

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secret. And I think one of the ways you can do that is by

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setting out from day one, what you're looking to do and how

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your skills kind of match that. So I think that's, that's great

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advice. And again, you're in the right environment. Of course,

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that helps a lot. It does.

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It helps a lot when you work for a company where you can

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be authentic you and that's the whole manner.

Lindsay Poss:

Oh, yeah. And where Management supports that.

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I want to shift gears just a little bit and talk about what

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you do with advertising and marketing and how you take a

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creative and innovative approach to that. Over the past couple

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years, we've definitely seen a lot of negativity surrounding

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digital ads. Gamers, especially are known to be a fickle

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audience. And targeted ads on social media have come up in

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everything from news stories to congressional hearings to think

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people's moms on Facebook have even probably shared some, some

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issues that they have with targeted ads. And it's

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definitely hard to remember why advertising is such a huge part

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of our lives these days, and why it's not all bad news. But I

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would love to hear from someone who was looking at this industry

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and trying to bring Authenticity to it. What excites you about

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working in advertising?

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Yeah, for sure. And I think that the first part of

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that answer, and then I'll I'll end with what excites me is the

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premise that games are funded, sometimes by people paying, but

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sometimes they're free to play a lot of times free to play. And

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the idea that we as you know, the gaming community want to

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have, you know, more content, more games, etc requires us to

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have funding models and current monetization models are being

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challenged by the fragmentation and the in the changes in the

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industry related to cookies, and and mobile IDs, and privacy, and

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all of those things are important topics. And so when

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you think about new monetization strategies, it's really about

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supporting the game development, gaming community. But really, at

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the center of that is making sure the game experiences taken

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care of, you know, gamers don't want when they're actively

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playing the game, they don't want to be disrupted. They want

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the performance and the experience of the game to be

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amazing. And so how do you the goal is to determine how you can

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put brand messaging in that environment in an authentic way,

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without disrupting the performance of this experience

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in the game. Honestly, that should be the same exact goal is

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all advertising. It shouldn't be just related to video games.

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Video gamers are, I would say, the most discerning crowd on the

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planet, they you know, they care greatly about their content

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experience as they should. But what if you thought about that

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exact philosophy? To the rest of advertising? What if you put the

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content first, what if you put the experience first? What if

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you really thought about the context in a much more

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meaningful way rather than thinking about it as a targeting

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tactic? You thought about it as actually how does your brand

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message resonate in this environment? What do I need to

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do differently as a brand marketer in order to truly show

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up in this environment in the more meaningful way and what

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gets me excited about advertising is solving those

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complex problems solving the complex problem of context

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content creative, so that ultimately the consumer or the

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game or in this case, is thought of first and that last in so

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that's sometimes a hard problem. Sometimes people get lost in you

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know, the doing the day to day operation of digital Marketing

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and they, they sometimes forget that it's actually the consumer

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experience at the end that matters. And that's what will

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pay out for the brand in the end. So that's what gets me

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excited every day. So think about that complex problem

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solving.

Lindsay Poss:

And want to dig, dig deeper on this, because the

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question of authenticity and how to authentically reach gamers

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comes up quite a lot. I, the word authenticity gets tossed

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around in the gaming industry a lot, I think, I think it's, it's

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becoming one of those kind of buzzwords where I think people

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have a good, there's a good heart behind it. But I don't

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know that the word holds all the meaning that it used to, if

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everyone is trying to be authentic, but also trying to

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sell an experience or a product, I think I think that it can, it

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can all get convoluted. And in a recent blog post, which we'll

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link in the show notes, I think that you framed authenticity in

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a new way that I found much more compelling personally, and you

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use the word seamless, and the idea of a seamless experience,

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maybe rather than a completely authentic experience. Again,

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these words they change in their meaning, but I feel as if when

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it comes to advertising, seamless experiences may be of

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more important than authenticity fully. But how do you weigh

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those two things? And what does this seamless experience mean to

Lindsay Poss:

you? That's, that's

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great. Thank you so much for First of all, her

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really, um, you know, understanding the environment is

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the first part of what I mean by that. And we've done a

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significant amount of work with the IB, PE and the IB us to

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break down what in game advertising actually means, for

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example, and, you know, up until this year, it was basically a

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big, you know, bucket of stuff. So when I first started at free

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play, and I told people what I did, they like, okay, like

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Twitch. And I would say, No, Twitch is great. twitches,

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people watching people play games, what I do is work with

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game developers to put ads in their games for people who play

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games. And what the IB work really did was start to break

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those, those environments down into much more meaningful

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components. So there's a difference between people who

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watch people play games, and people who play games, there's a

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difference between ads that might be around or next to a

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game, when you pause the game, you're either in between levels,

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you finished it, you know, whatever the case may be. And

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then when people are actually actively playing the game,

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they're in full attention about folding their laundry, they're

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not multitasking, they're literally immersed in that

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world. Intrinsic end game advertising is is is a much

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more, you know, meaningful experience and different

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experience than the others. And so when you think about the word

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seamless, what what that means in all of those environments,

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something very different. treating those environments

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differently, will allow the brand marketer or the brands to

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be authentic, but be integrated into the environment or the

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experience that's bespoke to that experience. And that's what

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we need to do as an industry is start to break down the

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experiences and not kind of do this whole kind of peanut butter

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approach. Is that what they call it? To gaming that really,

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again, educate yourself learn so that when you go into these

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environments, and you think about them discreetly, and your

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ads become seamless?

Lindsay Poss:

Okay, and you've used this common Trinsic

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advertising, I believe you did define it before, but can you

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just reiterate what that means to you exactly what it means?

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, I particularly like the Don't be a click head movement.

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And that's a very clever pun. But yeah, and I just want to

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make sure that everyone it myself included, understands

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what the exact definition of intrinsic advertising is, and

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what it means

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for the industry. Frank plays certainly, you know, came

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out with this, get this word in this meeting, when we first

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launched our company. So the meaning was really debated

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thoughtfully and carefully before the word was chosen, at

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least by the founders, and the founding team. And the goal is

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to think about the idea of the word intrinsic means natural,

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naturally placed inside the game. And there's another.

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There's another add context in the industry, our writer, it's

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called native. And that's really for more web based or app based

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ads. But intrinsic is meant to delineate from web and app based

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you know, ads meaning intrinsically or naturally

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inside of the game, it is officially now the new ad

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context for ads that are placed inside the actual environment

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itself. Versus around or next to the game. It's officially the ad

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context of VIP, as of last year. So that's what it means

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naturally placed inside the environment of the game.

Lindsay Poss:

Gotcha. And so that is just so that I make sure

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I'm crystal clear. That's the difference between say, I don't

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know, I play puzzle games a lot. So let's say a banner on the

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bottom of the puzzle game and like maybe an item or something

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that is representative of, of the thing that's being

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advertised in the actual game that I can drag when I'm

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creating the puzzle, or whatever it may be.

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Yeah, for sure. I mean, the the ad, the ad that might,

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you know, kind of like flow up or pop up, isn't, you know,

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integrated into the actual game design. That's how we think

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about it is integrating it into the design. We have wonderful

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games in our network. And you know, one of them is a town, and

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you flip houses. And part of the design of the town, you have

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billboards in the town, and you have signage in the town. And

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when you're walking through the town, you're going to see

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advertising, so instead of fake ads, it'd be better to just

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have, you know, Pizza Hut or progressive shirring. And, or if

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you're playing, you know, golf or tennis, you often see, you

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know, ads placed appropriately throughout the course, you know,

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throughout your experience, especially if you're playing in

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a tournament. So that's what we mean place naturally are

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intrinsically inside the environment itself. The game

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designer places the ad, that's the beauty of this whole thing,

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because they're designing the game. They're thinking through

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where does this make sense in context of the actual experience

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of the game of the design or the context of the game just as much

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as they think about putting a tree on the corner of whatever

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the experience is, they'll think about, I should probably put

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advertising, and why not have intrinsic in game advertising?

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It helps you monetize the game.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay. Like, I like

Lindsay Poss:

the way that you put that zooming out to the company side,

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we've talked about the developers in the gaming

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audience. What opportunities should companies be on lookout

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for to make it a seamless experience the seamless tripping

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over my words there? And what shouldn't they do?

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So when you mean companies, do you mean game

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developers or advertisers?

Lindsay Poss:

I think both. I would like to hear from both

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perspectives. You know, what, what can cause like, as you're

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saying, you know, maybe you're walking through town, and

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there's a Pizza Hut. And that makes a lot of sense. Because

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that might happen in the real world.

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Hungry for pizza?

Lindsay Poss:

Who isn't? But there might be some other

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company where it wouldn't actually, I think the auto

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insurance is particularly clever, because if any, everyone

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sees a bunch of auto insurance and advertisements everywhere,

Lindsay Poss:

so this is actually be a new way to consume them. But I'm trying

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to think and I can't come up with an example on the spot. But

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there's ways or things, obviously, where companies

Lindsay Poss:

wouldn't it wouldn't make sense in this particular context of

Lindsay Poss:

that guess. Oh, yes. How were you kind of able to do that

Lindsay Poss:

matchmaking process where it's like, okay, if you're in a town,

Lindsay Poss:

it makes sense to have rest of auto insurance. But maybe if

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you're playing an outerspace game, there might be something

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else that maybe fits that theme a little bit better. Yeah. So

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from both the game developers perspective, as in keeping their

Lindsay Poss:

games free, and learning how to properly advertise in including

Lindsay Poss:

advertising in a way that is intrinsic, and popular with

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their audience to continue playing. And from company's

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perspective, we're looking to advertise in the proper worlds.

Lindsay Poss:

How do you go about that kind of matchmaking process? Yes. Is

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there anything that stands out as like a not necessarily

Lindsay Poss:

anything screenplays done, but any other ad campaigns that

Lindsay Poss:

you've seen other places, or companies where you thought that

Lindsay Poss:

really misses the mark?

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I've got all sorts of answers. And also, this is good

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for games that aren't just free to play. You know, certainly we

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have clients that do charge, but maybe they don't charge as much

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because they can offset it with with them. With the new

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monetization strict screen stream. I'm tripping over my

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words. So you think about the development process, at least

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for our philosophy, the number one thing we do is we work hand

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in hand with them. And we they certainly have complete control.

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They are the designers of the game. So we help guide and

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advise them, we want to make sure that they put ads in the

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game where they naturally belong, where they intrinsically

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belong. So that's really important because at the end of

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the day, it's about optimizing the experience, the joy, the

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delight, sometimes the competition, whatever you're

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playing a game for. So at the core of this is getting the

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actual design right and the Making sure that you're putting

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those placements in the right spot. The other part of it is

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making sure you put them in a spot where people will see them.

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Our technology actually calculates whether or not you've

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use us, as the player see the ad, we have a 3d viewability

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capability that constantly calculates that. So we're going

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to be able to give our game developers the feedback on

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whether or not the placements in their game were seen. They want

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them to be seen because they make money. And they also want

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to make sure that the brands are happy. So that's part of that

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journey is is you know, very hands on QA, those processes,

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these are oftentimes very, you know, multi year works of art.

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And making sure that we get that right is really, really

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important. I've seen on the game developer side I've seen where

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we've, it's not been our technology, maybe the technology

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isn't, is is ready, it might actually deliver ads that aren't

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actually showing off, it might be with a black box or

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something. So making sure that the tech, the tech is tested,

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and properly renders ads, because these are real time live

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streaming experiences. And so do it, you having the game

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developers, they do that they do due diligence with us, they want

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to make sure that you know, our technology, you know, our frame

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per second load is very, very low. All those things that they

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should do, you know, with us, and I think they found you know

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that some some hiccups along the way with some with some other

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approaches. On the advertiser side, we actually have a

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different creative standard. So think about a web banner ad.

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Okay, what we see in a web banner ad is install now click

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here, some calls to action, or might be a ton of text, or it

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might be you know, just a lot of stuff going on. Because

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typically people they're, you know, staring at a web page or

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whatever. And again, you're constantly moving, you're

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playing, it's an environment. So what you want to do first of

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all, is make sure the ad it doesn't have all the stuff in

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it, that it's easy to understand. It gets your message

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of point, message and point across very clearly. So you're

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going to highlight logos, you're going to highlight in the DRI,

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you're going to highlight your brand colors, you're going to

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keep tech text limited, and you're certainly not going to

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say click here while they're actively playing a cane. At

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least for now, because that experience would actually stop

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there, you know, stop the game flow, there are appropriate

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appropriate places to certainly be able to click on on ads and

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games, but not during absolute act of gameplay.

Lindsay Poss:

That's what drives me crazy.

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drive everybody crazy. So we do work hand in hand with

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the you know, the world's biggest brands to make sure that

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their ads are redone and streamlined. The other thing is

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high quality, higher quality, you know, if you look at these

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games, they're built on game engines that are rendering the

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imagery and on devices that can take much higher quality

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experiences than maybe web pages and apps today. So we do ask for

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you know, higher pixel density and a couple of other things to

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make sure that the ad quality looks as good as the tapestry in

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which thin. So, so that's a big deal, too. And I we've seen some

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missteps, again, from some other, you know, instances

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outside of our, our platform in our network where they might

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accept her web based ads, and they just, they just don't look

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good. Just you know, as is so so we take a lot of pride in

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getting the tech right and getting the creative, right. And

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when we know we do that the gamer is serviced, you know,

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first and foremost with the beautiful experience, and then

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the brand and the game developer when accordingly in that order,

Lindsay Poss:

as someone who has experienced the black box that's

Lindsay Poss:

like a game or restart a game as a result of them not loading

Lindsay Poss:

properly. I think that that's great. That's extremely

Lindsay Poss:

important. I like that you've pointed out some things that are

Lindsay Poss:

differentiating, because I think that that's a better way of

Lindsay Poss:

framing it. But how have gamers responded to this type of

Lindsay Poss:

advertising? I'm particularly interested in this because the

Lindsay Poss:

best response to be when what to me, looking at this as a gamer

Lindsay Poss:

would be no response. As Yes. Not that. Yeah. But they don't

Lindsay Poss:

necessarily notice that. Yes, yeah. Not natural or intrinsic

Lindsay Poss:

advertising, right, that it's just it's part of the experience

Lindsay Poss:

that's in there. And it kind of just works. And so but that

Lindsay Poss:

makes your job a little bit hard because you're not necessarily

Lindsay Poss:

getting feedback on Yeah, this is a great, great placement, you

Lindsay Poss:

know, so how are you able to keep track of all of that?

Unknown:

Yes, that's a great question. So number one,

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certainly, yes. One of the things that especially early on

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when we watch one of the world's biggest gaming studios was that

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we got zero feedback from them, you know, usually when they

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launch other features or other types of monetization things

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they'll you know, they definitely will get feedback. We

Unknown:

got none, which was what we got some from them saying they got

Unknown:

mad, which was good. But we do you get feedback brands do ask

Unknown:

us for that. And we work with companies like comScore, we do

Unknown:

very methodical Brand Lift studies, where we ask people,

Unknown:

are you a gamer? Number one, you know, do you play games? Do you

Unknown:

specifically play these games? Have you played these games

Unknown:

where ads are in exposed versus control? And one of the

Unknown:

questions aside from mobile ad recall and purchase intent,

Unknown:

which are standard brand metrics that we do ask them is do like

Unknown:

the sponsorship of the game, do like the fact that this

Unknown:

particular brand was in the game. And we have seen plus 22

Unknown:

plus 40%, lift? In that answer. And in the other answers,

Unknown:

because they do value it, they think it makes the game better.

Unknown:

They think it improves the experience. It's not disrupting

Unknown:

it makes it more real, versus you know, fake friends fake

Unknown:

Fridays pizza at Riverside Drive, or what? I hope that's

Unknown:

not a real thing. But But that's, that's what we do. And

Unknown:

so we do we do a lot of research like that we have a lot more

Unknown:

coming out in the next, you know, two months that we'll talk

Unknown:

about in a later time. But we do ask them that. And they do tell

Unknown:

us, you know, gamers aren't shy at all. So

Lindsay Poss:

they will let you know, best and worst qualities.

Unknown:

They'll let you know, which is wonderful.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, I definitely, yes. I think that we

Lindsay Poss:

have all heard instances of the gamer community reacting

Lindsay Poss:

negatively to things. Yes. Yeah. So yes, it is strange to say

Lindsay Poss:

that no feedback is good feedback. But when it comes to

Lindsay Poss:

this particular industry, that's very true. So I suppose it's a

Lindsay Poss:

good thing that you haven't heard anything thus far. That's

Lindsay Poss:

that's very encouraging. I wanted to get into a little bit

Lindsay Poss:

about diversity, equity inclusion as well, because I

Lindsay Poss:

know from your point of view, and we've talked about this

Lindsay Poss:

previously, but why has it taken so long for the advertising

Lindsay Poss:

industry to recognize that gamers as diverse as the human

Lindsay Poss:

race, because over 2 billion people in the world play world

Lindsay Poss:

play games, and there's only 7 billion people in the world? So

Lindsay Poss:

presumably, there's a large percentage of the population

Lindsay Poss:

playing games. The Why do you think is advertising? Why do you

Lindsay Poss:

think it's taken advertisers so long to recognize that and to

Lindsay Poss:

expand the type of experiences they're building in game and the

Lindsay Poss:

ways that they're trying to reach both in game to actually

Lindsay Poss:

see that there's a wide variety of audiences, they can reach?

Unknown:

Yeah, I think, first of all, if you talk about what's

Unknown:

happening outside of gaming, and that helps us a little bit. So

Unknown:

you know, even if so 20 years ago, of course, the

Unknown:

multicultural agencies exist, even more so. And that was good

Unknown:

that they were they were, you know, sad, but true, considered

Unknown:

boutique type agencies in a way of niche type agencies. And the

Unknown:

reason I was thinking through this question, the reason I

Unknown:

think that was at the time, and even up until somewhat recently,

Unknown:

is because the advertising industry craved scale. They

Unknown:

crave scale first, if they can reach as many people that

Unknown:

possibly can buy their product at the same time without doing

Unknown:

very much different. They can have their scale, be efficient

Unknown:

scale. I think what they've learned over the years with a

Unknown:

lot of the cultural movements that have happened for us, you

Unknown:

know, I don't need to name all of them, many of them are top of

Unknown:

all of our minds. But I think the idea of scale is is

Unknown:

important, but but scale and context with the context overlay

Unknown:

is incredibly important. And when you think about context in

Unknown:

the right context, then you definitely need to start talking

Unknown:

about Dei, in media and media reaching reaching people. People

Unknown:

are not all the same, we are, in fact different. Who knew. And so

Unknown:

I think the industry has definitely done a lot of really

Unknown:

valuable things. I even see programmatic, you know, specific

Unknown:

programmatic PMPs now being started by many of the holding

Unknown:

companies that have that that actually directly you know,

Unknown:

serve underserved communities, etc, like that. So I think

Unknown:

there's been I think there's been movement just in general,

Unknown:

in the advertising industry. We have a lot to go in the movie

Unknown:

industry, which actually gaming and the entertainment you know,

Unknown:

the movie industry are very similar in so many ways. In the

Unknown:

movie industry in the last five years, you've seen so many Any

Unknown:

specific, you know, actors especially actor stand up and

Unknown:

saying I want to create an entire production house just to

Unknown:

serve this community or that community. And that didn't

Unknown:

happen two years ago either. So we've got some really good

Unknown:

momentum in general by the like, it's pretty new and recent. Now,

Unknown:

when you when you talk about gaming, essentially, almost 3

Unknown:

billion people, so some will have, let's say, the population

Unknown:

on the planet,

Lindsay Poss:

please head over to I was thinking is actually

Lindsay Poss:

2.7, I should have said really

Unknown:

will be a staunch defender of that number. So so

Unknown:

the so the gaming industry has has been in its own bubble,

Unknown:

let's just call it what it is. We've been on bubble for a very

Unknown:

long time. And you know, so the whole again, over here, the

Unknown:

whole world was doing all the things I just explained, we're

Unknown:

getting better. We're working on that. And then the gaming

Unknown:

industry was in its own little bubble, not, you know, following

Unknown:

some of that, but we've all read the headlines not following some

Unknown:

of those things do and in the wrong sort of ways. So. So I do

Unknown:

believe that the current is there, the current is there, I

Unknown:

believe that we have the right setup, I believe we have the

Unknown:

consumer or the gamer standing up and saying no, I want you to

Unknown:

treat me differently. I want representation, I want to see

Unknown:

someone that looks like me, in your content, content, movies,

Unknown:

TV shows gaming. So I think gaming is going to benefit from

Unknown:

that kind of general wave of change, which is fantastic. But

Unknown:

there's a lot of work to do in the gaming industry to keep up

Unknown:

with the that current because, you know, there's a lot of

Unknown:

legacy that's needs to be sorted. I would say.

Lindsay Poss:

I think that that's been the overwhelming

Lindsay Poss:

sentiment is well, first of all, it's been more so about for the

Lindsay Poss:

people that I've interviewed the principles of dei and the

Lindsay Poss:

incorporation of them. There's been issues with timing, both

Lindsay Poss:

than that it's taken far too long, and progress has been far

Lindsay Poss:

too slow. So I think that you're right, you know, you're saying

Lindsay Poss:

dei companies in consulting firms started, you know, 20

Lindsay Poss:

years ago. And yet, we're it took some horrendous events. And

Lindsay Poss:

yes, worldwide, just absolutely terrible, a whole pandemic, for

Lindsay Poss:

everyone to sit down and start listening to the folks that have

Lindsay Poss:

been shouting it from rooftop for years. Yeah, I think that

Lindsay Poss:

yeah, I think you represent a fairly, a fairly agreed upon

Lindsay Poss:

view that, yes, we are happy that there's movement, we're

Lindsay Poss:

happy that this current exists. However, the speed is taken us

Lindsay Poss:

to start listening to these folks. And the speed at which

Lindsay Poss:

we're implementing change can be very frustrating. Yeah. How do

Lindsay Poss:

you think about that when you're creating these experiences? And

Lindsay Poss:

when you're choosing people to work with? Or when you're

Lindsay Poss:

working on a project? Like how are you kind of thinking about

Lindsay Poss:

bringing in di and I guess

Unknown:

this current? Yes, I, you know, I have to tell you, I

Unknown:

was never I didn't I didn't in my earlier career, join a

Unknown:

women's groups, for example. Why didn't I, I don't know, I hit

Unknown:

kids, I was busy, whatever. I'm not sure why I didn't do it. But

Unknown:

I am now a massive believer in joining groups where people can

Unknown:

help you understand the issues better than you know, basically

Unknown:

shedding light on the things that you just don't know. And so

Unknown:

I'm really thankful that through this job, I was able to join

Unknown:

kind of a women in games leadership group, that's, you

Unknown:

know, CEOs, venture capital C suite type people, we talk about

Unknown:

this topic, every two weeks, we commit to each other, to show up

Unknown:

and create an environment where we can say hard things. And I

Unknown:

would say creating an environment where you can say

Unknown:

hard things say I'm struggling with this, I don't know how to

Unknown:

solve that. The second part of that is create an environment

Unknown:

where we support each other, hey, GDC is coming to town.

Unknown:

We're doing a panel right now. It's not diverse. We need

Unknown:

diversity on the panel, reaching out having a network that you

Unknown:

can create that you can reach out and and just do those things

Unknown:

and make sure that you're being purposeful in everything that

Unknown:

you're doing to make sure that your fabric is truly a fabric of

Unknown:

you know, all sorts of perspectives, cultures, etc. At

Unknown:

work at frankly, you know, when I joined there were only a

Unknown:

handful of people and honestly, it was nearly all Caucasian.

Unknown:

Again, it was very, very early, and we made an absolute,

Unknown:

purposeful plan to have Have as much diversity in the company as

Unknown:

possible, even though we're under 50 employees. And I'm

Unknown:

really proud of the progress that we've made. You know, I'm

Unknown:

sitting here, which is great, but we have an incredible team

Unknown:

of men and women and different cultures. Are we perfect with

Unknown:

our diversity numbers? No. But we make every effort in our

Unknown:

hiring and our interviewing, making sure our candidate

Unknown:

selection is diverse, making sure we're looking at different

Unknown:

pools of talent, that's another thing you have to do is not

Unknown:

always look in the same spot. Because because that actually

Unknown:

makes us a better company. The data is there that suggests that

Unknown:

our performance is better when when we have different

Unknown:

perspectives. So So those are the things I think about, you

Unknown:

know, on this topic, and I'm still learning, you know, never

Unknown:

think that you know, everything. I think that's the number one

Unknown:

thing, and this is God, we don't walk in other people's shoes. So

Unknown:

you've got to be able to put yourself in positions to listen

Unknown:

to them, have them tell their story.

Lindsay Poss:

I like this piece of advice a lot to find a group

Lindsay Poss:

of people that can not only help you further understand issues,

Lindsay Poss:

but support you as you work through them. Yeah, I think that

Lindsay Poss:

a lot of what you're talking about takes bravery. And it

Lindsay Poss:

takes recognizing when you're inside of your own box, and it

Lindsay Poss:

takes stepping out of it, it can be really, really difficult. But

Lindsay Poss:

if you have a group of people where you feel you can be honest

Lindsay Poss:

and get the support they need certainly makes it easier. I

Lindsay Poss:

also will mention that I had a previous guest to set. And I

Lindsay Poss:

feel like I've referenced a lot of past episodes here. But it's

Lindsay Poss:

great. I love being able to bring people on and then talk

Lindsay Poss:

about all the great conversations I've had and work

Lindsay Poss:

some of the lessons that I've learned by doing this. And but

Lindsay Poss:

she had very succinctly said that dei equals ROI. And I

Lindsay Poss:

thought that was a great way of saying it and you have further

Lindsay Poss:

proven her point there. Yes, or Yes. And so I do want to talk

Lindsay Poss:

about how this all relates to the metaverse and the

Lindsay Poss:

opportunities you see there. Metaverse is kind of this big. I

Lindsay Poss:

don't know. I don't know exactly what to call it. But it's a big

Lindsay Poss:

lump of confusion in terms of ideas and future tech. And

Lindsay Poss:

there's a lot of possibility. But there's also a lot of

Lindsay Poss:

pushback. And there's just there's a lot of excitement

Lindsay Poss:

around this idea. And I think there's just as much skepticism

Lindsay Poss:

which, which probably means that something is going to happen

Lindsay Poss:

with it right? You will be right and someone will be wrong. Or

Lindsay Poss:

all the big group of us sitting in the middle will say okay,

Lindsay Poss:

yeah, we thought something was going to happen. And so how are

Lindsay Poss:

you thinking about taking your ideas and your strategy into the

Lindsay Poss:

space? Taking ad ad tech into the space and incorporating dei

Lindsay Poss:

principles and all of that good stuff. So what's the metaverse

Lindsay Poss:

mean to you? What are you thinking about?

Unknown:

Yeah, first, I want to just mention to you about the

Unknown:

hype, because it's a perfect part of it. And then of course,

Unknown:

I'll answer the question. So when social first, you know,

Unknown:

started to grow, one of the biggest concepts in social was

Unknown:

something called the Open Graph. In the Open Graph, basically was

Unknown:

Facebook and others and allowing for interoperability, and also

Unknown:

basically, kind of user development, user content

Unknown:

development, whether that be called UGC, or just they allowed

Unknown:

you to develop, you know, other applications that connected in

Unknown:

and leverage the Open Graph. So it's a that's a really important

Unknown:

point to think about, because in the beginning, people didn't

Unknown:

understand the power of that, which fundamentally fueled, you

Unknown:

know, a significant amount of the communication and content of

Unknown:

the of the internet and of course of mobile applications.

Unknown:

So we think about the idea of that concept. And then you think

Unknown:

about how that's being applied to some of the content concepts

Unknown:

of the of the metaverse or just flat three. Overall, because the

Unknown:

metaverse would be, you know, one, one component of the

Unknown:

concept of web three, I happen to be a co founder of the web

Unknown:

three Marketing Association as well. And so we think about

Unknown:

these concepts in concept in in kind of the context of web three

Unknown:

transition, Metaverse being a virtual experience, an elevated

Unknown:

virtual experience within Web three, that it has other

Unknown:

elements like, you know, new currencies, new data and

Unknown:

technology kind of platforms and approaches crypto blockchain,

Unknown:

new forms of creative that are etc. So the metaverse is is, you

Unknown:

know, certainly I think, you know, for shapes and forms of

Unknown:

the concept of the metaverse will absolutely happen. So

Unknown:

that's that, for me is not really a debate but the

Unknown:

metaverse versus metaverse. Life experiences I think are what

Unknown:

people should be debating the true capability for the

Unknown:

metaverse meaning one single, you know, decentralized. world,

Unknown:

you know, is a wonderful vision, probably for science fiction,

Unknown:

but Metaverse experiences that that do interoperate and

Unknown:

connect, I think, you know, certainly are the near term

Unknown:

reality that will happen if they already do. How does gaming

Unknown:

relate to the metaverse? Certainly frame players, as

Unknown:

mentioned, you know, is a leader in intrinsic in game

Unknown:

advertising. And as mentioned how we do that is our technology

Unknown:

works with game engines, and for students of the metaverse. If

Unknown:

you're a student of the metaverse, you know that game

Unknown:

engines are basically the primary drivers of the content

Unknown:

experiences today. They involve lots of different technology

Unknown:

components for the novice to understand. They have basically

Unknown:

creative libraries that help read render the pictures, they

Unknown:

have audio capabilities that help you know the sound, render

Unknown:

in concert with the pictures. In the experience, they have

Unknown:

artificial intelligence, they have, you know, some physics

Unknown:

engines, etc, to help everything kind of work together. So this

Unknown:

is different than websites and that cheese, people's cheese has

Unknown:

to move there. And they need to understand how game engines

Unknown:

work. game engines also power games. And so we are experts at

Unknown:

serving ads inside of virtual environments that are games.

Unknown:

That is our bread and butter. Today, we're very focused on

Unknown:

that we believe fully that the metaverse and video games are

Unknown:

mutually exclusive, but complimentary. And we think that

Unknown:

they will forever be best friends in concert with each

Unknown:

other, but they definitely serve two different purposes. And we

Unknown:

are very, very focused on making sure that the experience and the

Unknown:

performance of the gaming environment that's powered by

Unknown:

game engine is flawless for the game for the gamer for the game

Unknown:

developer and for the brand. And certainly your question was how

Unknown:

does that apply to metaverse? Well, of course, if you have a

Unknown:

Metaverse based on game engine mechanics, then there will be

Unknown:

opportunities for you know that tech to translate into those

Unknown:

environments in meaningful ways. But we're focused today on

Unknown:

getting the games right?

Lindsay Poss:

Like this distinction of the metaverse,

Lindsay Poss:

capital T capital M versus Metaverse experiences. I have

Lindsay Poss:

written this in the notes. But there's a recent article about

Lindsay Poss:

STEAM founder Gabe Newell, basically just being so grumpy

Lindsay Poss:

about the metaverse and it really kind of got me down. And

Lindsay Poss:

I've heard so many people say this is Second Life and all this

Lindsay Poss:

stuff. Gabe Newell made a good point of basically saying, you

Lindsay Poss:

know, immersive experiences and video gaming has been around for

Lindsay Poss:

a very long time. And I do tend to agree with that, I think

Lindsay Poss:

where he falls short is not recognizing how those

Lindsay Poss:

experiences might change and expand adapt, which I think is

Lindsay Poss:

something that it sounds like you are excited about.

Unknown:

I'm very, I'm very excited about that. Obviously,

Unknown:

as a lifelong innovator, you know, I always love a good

Unknown:

challenge. And as I mentioned, context, creative, you know,

Unknown:

content and consumer. And when you get those things, right,

Unknown:

especially in you know, really complex virtual environments,

Unknown:

you're going to win every time. But there are some real big

Unknown:

challenges with the metaverse yourself to solve in terms of

Unknown:

just you know, we need much more compute power. You know, there's

Unknown:

a lot out there, we talk about the idea of an energy drain, you

Unknown:

know, with all of these beautiful visions of the virtual

Unknown:

world, it takes a lot of energy and do we really want to, you

Unknown:

know, go that route without having some solutions for that,

Unknown:

which I'm sure somebody will solve. So there's some big big

Unknown:

challenges still to set forth. That is a big

Lindsay Poss:

rabbit hole to go down, which we do not have time

Lindsay Poss:

for. And before we get into our last segment, I'd like to do a

Lindsay Poss:

short summary of some of the stuff that we've we've talked

Lindsay Poss:

about. In the podcast so far, one of the first things you

Lindsay Poss:

opened with is that you're very as a parent, very pro game, as a

Lindsay Poss:

as a way to have a creative outlet, which I know that that

Lindsay Poss:

was mentioned in passing. But I think that's very important for

Lindsay Poss:

all the folks out there. And when you when we talked about

Lindsay Poss:

your job and your your development, your transition,

Lindsay Poss:

one of the things I thought was great was, if it's possible, you

Lindsay Poss:

should always define the role that you want to do. You should

Lindsay Poss:

if you are in a good environment, and you have the

Lindsay Poss:

right management then to go for it and put yourself out there,

Lindsay Poss:

figure out what your best match for and do the best that you can

Lindsay Poss:

for the people that are also supporting you on the other

Lindsay Poss:

side. There is a difference in people who play games versus

Lindsay Poss:

people who watch people play games. They require different

Lindsay Poss:

advertising and every environment is kind of discrete,

Lindsay Poss:

you have to think about it in its own way. that brought us

Lindsay Poss:

into a discussion on intrinsic advertising, which are a way of

Lindsay Poss:

naturally placing ads inside the game is different than native.

Lindsay Poss:

It's meant to delineate from web and other ads. And the context

Lindsay Poss:

for ads placed in the environment itself is very

Lindsay Poss:

specific to the type of environment you start with. So

Lindsay Poss:

you have these kind of discrete entities where you're figuring

Lindsay Poss:

out how to make advertising very natural and native to the end

Lindsay Poss:

gaming experience. When it comes to D AI principles, there's a

Lindsay Poss:

general wave and undercurrent of change and or push for better

Lindsay Poss:

representation. But gaming has a long way to go. As you said,

Lindsay Poss:

we've all seen the headlines. One of the great pieces of

Lindsay Poss:

advice that I thought you gave was to join groups and or why

Lindsay Poss:

find people or form your own group to help you shed light on

Lindsay Poss:

things that you might not know and have difficult conversations

Lindsay Poss:

while also supporting each other. We ended with a short

Lindsay Poss:

discussion on the metaverse and I liked that you differentiated

Lindsay Poss:

between the metaverse, capital T capital M and Metaverse

Lindsay Poss:

experiences. The first may be science fiction, but the second

Lindsay Poss:

is real and will change and evolve as tech in gaming,

Lindsay Poss:

including gaming engines evolve. And then I liked your little

Lindsay Poss:

tagline of context, context, creative content, and consumer.

Lindsay Poss:

So thinking about those four things, how they all work

Lindsay Poss:

together, how one flows into the next. So I think that that's

Lindsay Poss:

going to be a lot of good lessons for people listening, I

Lindsay Poss:

love to end each podcast with the same the same segment, it's

Lindsay Poss:

called a moment of reflection, the chance just for you to think

Lindsay Poss:

about your career where you're at. And I would love to ask you

Lindsay Poss:

what is one thing you would like to tell your younger self about

Lindsay Poss:

getting into the gaming industry and being successful?

Unknown:

My younger self would, I have the opportunity to learn

Unknown:

basic programming. And I was in sixth grade, which was very,

Unknown:

very rare. And I didn't, yes, because I've been around a

Unknown:

really long time. But I stopped, I didn't continue with

Unknown:

programming. And I wasn't really offered in school, so But I, in

Unknown:

my younger self, if I had the opportunity to tell me, I would

Unknown:

say go search it out, Go Lean In harder. Now it's it's much more

Unknown:

readily available for younger people in school. And I don't

Unknown:

mean, you know, necessarily, but I value developers greatly,

Unknown:

obviously, that the core of our company. But what I would say is

Unknown:

that I would learn a lot earlier, the principles that I

Unknown:

could design something I could have my creative side, and I

Unknown:

could fill that technique at the same exact time much earlier in

Unknown:

my career if I would have just kept, you know, kind of bellying

Unknown:

and leaning into those, those both of those design principles.

Unknown:

And that's what I love about gaming. I'm so enamored with

Unknown:

creators, they are creators, and their creators that have both

Unknown:

these high and creative capabilities and high end

Unknown:

technology capabilities. Usually, one an industry has one

Unknown:

or the other. But to truly be, you know, brilliant developers,

Unknown:

you have both. And I would tell my younger self keep going,

Unknown:

because I love both sides of that equation for me. And, you

Unknown:

know, I'm really passionate about supporting others who do

Lindsay Poss:

that, that's really great, because I haven't

Lindsay Poss:

I haven't actually had a lot of people give sort of hard were

Lindsay Poss:

like straight. This is maybe what you should think about

Lindsay Poss:

advice. And I like that you're talking about how, how gaming is

Lindsay Poss:

really the fulcrum of creativity and art learn skills. I too wish

Lindsay Poss:

I had taken programming more seriously. And I always joke

Lindsay Poss:

about going back to school for that. I think you can be a big

Lindsay Poss:

writer and a big reader, I think you can actually be kind of

Lindsay Poss:

similar in that in that creative way and learning the language

Lindsay Poss:

and going through with all that. So I think that that's, that's

Lindsay Poss:

very fun. This is a very fun, different way of thinking about

Lindsay Poss:

things that I've had before, especially on this segment. So I

Lindsay Poss:

appreciate that. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on.

Lindsay Poss:

Where can people find you if you want to be found or follow free

Lindsay Poss:

play or follow your work?

Unknown:

Certainly, I mean, I'm definitely big on LinkedIn.

Unknown:

That's probably my primary social channel. You know,

Unknown:

Twitter by default, because I post everything there twice. But

Unknown:

definitely frame play. dG is our company's website, which is good

Unknown:

and Frank plan, follow free plan LinkedIn too. We tend to post a

Unknown:

lot. We were trying to just inspire and educate the industry

Unknown:

and make sure every end we get this right right in mind to make

Unknown:

sure everybody understands you know that if we serve the gamer

Unknown:

at the center, that everybody, everybody wins. So that's where

Unknown:

you can find us.

Lindsay Poss:

Thank you so much. For all of our listeners out

Lindsay Poss:

there. Be sure to leave those five star ratings and reviews.

Lindsay Poss:

Check out other holodeck media podcast. including meta business

Lindsay Poss:

for all the metaverse, finance stories you could ever want.

Lindsay Poss:

Business of esports for interviews with industry

Lindsay Poss:

leaders. I'm on Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn at

Lindsay Poss:

Lindsey path. And you can catch me Wednesday nights on the

Lindsay Poss:

business of esports. Live after show. You can catch this podcast

Lindsay Poss:

and your feed every Tuesday. We'll see you next week.

Unknown:

Thanks for joining us here on meta woman. Make sure to

Unknown:

subscribe to this podcast everywhere you get your

Unknown:

podcasts, leave a five star review and tell your friends

Unknown:

family and colleagues all about us. Also, make sure to follow

Unknown:

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Unknown:

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About the Podcast

META Woman
Weekly metaverse content - for women, by women
Meta Woman will focus on addressing the issues, opportunities, and challenges facing women in the development of the Metaverse. Top female executives and business people operating within the gaming and crypto industries bring a wide range of perspectives through regular guest appearances.