Episode 16

full
Published on:

22nd Mar 2022

16. Charlotte's Web3

Special episode alert! Joining me this week are my first male guests, Max and Jack Wink. Max and Jack are Web3 game developers who are building a special mechanism to root out toxicity in gaming by rewarding positive behavior and establishing role models. Max and Jack give me a primer of what Web3 means and how it should be a "boring transition" into Web3 experiences, we then discuss the game they're building, and we round out with how the game development process can change to better serve everyone.

Transcript
Unknown:

Welcome to the meta woman podcast we address the

Unknown:

issues, opportunities and challenges facing women in the

Unknown:

development of the metaverse the biggest revolution since the

Unknown:

internet itself. Every week, we bring you conversations with top

Unknown:

female talent and business executives operating in the

Unknown:

gaming and crypto industries. Here's your host Lindsey, the

Unknown:

boss pass, the metal woman podcast starts now.

Lindsay Poss:

Hello, and welcome to the metal woman podcast part

Lindsay Poss:

of the holodeck media Podcast Network. I'm your host, Lindsay

Lindsay Poss:

The Boss Boss, from struggle to success recovering it all. To

Lindsay Poss:

our returning listeners. Thank you so much for supporting the

Lindsay Poss:

show. And for our new listeners. Welcome, I hope you enjoy

Lindsay Poss:

joining me this week, our max and Jack wait from lunchbox

Lindsay Poss:

entertainment. longtime listeners may recognize that

Lindsay Poss:

Jack and Max are our first mail. Yep. And also take a bet for how

Lindsay Poss:

fast I say Jackson Mac or combine your names. I just know

Lindsay Poss:

that's going to happen early on. And the goal of met a woman is

Lindsay Poss:

not only to highlight what so many of the awesome women that

Lindsay Poss:

I've had on are doing in this space, but also to highlight

Lindsay Poss:

work that's relevant or building a more inclusive space for

Lindsay Poss:

everyone. And we want the future of gaming to to be better and

Lindsay Poss:

look better than it might be today. And so I want to bring on

Lindsay Poss:

people who are committed to that as Mac than Jack are so excited

Lindsay Poss:

to share with you all what they do and get into some of the

Lindsay Poss:

issues that they're taking on Mac than Jack, Mac and Jack.

Lindsay Poss:

Thanks, Mr. Welcome to the show. It's

Unknown:

not your fault. Thank you. Glad to be here.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, it's great. Great to have you to start I

Lindsay Poss:

would love for you to introduce yourself and give the audience a

Lindsay Poss:

bit of background about you and your story and what you do.

Unknown:

Sure, I guess I can go first, my backgrounds actually

Unknown:

been in gaming pretty much my whole career. But mostly on the

Unknown:

content side. It was started at working at a discovery

Unknown:

subsidiary called rabbit three. At the time revision three, was

Unknown:

a video producer there for quite some time and worked with Adam

Unknown:

Sessler, who is came from g4, then made my way over to twitch,

Unknown:

where that's when I learned about, you know, Internet

Unknown:

communities and how communities form around content creators.

Unknown:

And then were to the management company that repped those, those

Unknown:

streamers, those gamers on on Twitch, and then decided that I

Unknown:

should join jack in in making a video game for the first time.

Unknown:

Yeah, and I come from more of a crypto background, early

Unknown:

investor in theory, I'm big in those guys. Especially some of

Unknown:

the stuff that's going on with like consensus spokes, that type

Unknown:

of thing. And then also big gamer Max grew up with games,

Unknown:

playing a lot of different competitive ones, a lot of the

Unknown:

different like, my communities that existed. So it kind of

Unknown:

always made a lot of sense, when crypto got introduced to more of

Unknown:

the mainstream that like, Okay, this is definitely gonna be

Unknown:

applicable to gaming. And it was until about this last year we're

Unknown:

like, or it's it's in a pretty good stage where it could really

Unknown:

create like a seamless experience for new players and

Unknown:

be really better for gamers generally.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, so I want to just start in digging with that,

Lindsay Poss:

because I know that you all are working a lot on web three,

Lindsay Poss:

aiming in forms for web three. So that's a term that's gotten

Lindsay Poss:

thrown around a lot in the past the past couple of years or so

Lindsay Poss:

there's a lot of interest in it. But there's also a lot of, you

Lindsay Poss:

know, it's early people don't know exactly what that means

Lindsay Poss:

what it is. And so can you all talk about what free gaming

Lindsay Poss:

means to you? What is it? How do you think about it? And how are

Lindsay Poss:

you incorporating it in?

Unknown:

So in your game, a really good way of understanding

Unknown:

what three is kind of understand web two first, right? So you

Unknown:

know, you can even look at web one, which is kind of a giant

Unknown:

Wikipedia 1991 2004 a situation where pretty much everyone just

Unknown:

looking at web browsers, you know, different web pages that

Unknown:

people were making themselves. And it was pretty much all just

Unknown:

consumer, right? Then you kind of had this phase of web two

Unknown:

where you had like flash and you know, JavaScript come out. And

Unknown:

that really created a lot of different interactivity for

Unknown:

different people in the internet generally, that's kind of like

Unknown:

what we think of it now. Right? We're still in that web two

Unknown:

phase. And really in like a gaming context, I think that's

Unknown:

really important where you then have situations where, you know,

Unknown:

Liga, legends, Flash games, all that kind of different stuff of

Unknown:

our now players interacting with games online. And basically

Unknown:

having a circumstance where, what kind of content they're

Unknown:

paying for. I'm really like with web three, in general, it's all

Unknown:

about giving more ownership over to everyone, ownership over all

Unknown:

uses of the internet. And when web three really comes around,

Unknown:

it's usually about how can we give players more ownership over

Unknown:

their digital goods over there. Different items that they're

Unknown:

purchasing as well as receiving from being really committed to a

Unknown:

community or a game

Lindsay Poss:

can you go on a little bit about why you chose

Lindsay Poss:

to develop a web application?

Unknown:

So pretty much for me, at least, I was a big gamer in

Unknown:

like, CS GO Dota, two, evenly a League of Legends. And I think,

Unknown:

you know, being Maxim to this crazy experience where we both

Unknown:

are playing Cisco once and you know, you get these boxes that

Unknown:

you can unlock to get skins, and Cisco. And one of the really,

Unknown:

really rare skins to unlock was a butterfly knife, right. And

Unknown:

butterfly knives are cool, because when you play, you can

Unknown:

spin them around and look at them. And everyone's always

Unknown:

like, Oh, wow, where'd you get that night, so awesome. And in

Unknown:

like the course of two hours, both me and Max got one of these

Unknown:

butterfly knives, which is just absurd rarity, like, you know,

Unknown:

the random chance of that is just nuts. We're all really

Unknown:

excited. It was super cool. And it was worth a lot of money.

Unknown:

Like, after the next couple of days, we've like looked it up on

Unknown:

Steam Marketplace, and it was like worth 200 or $300. But it

Unknown:

was kind of strange, because it was worth that much. But we

Unknown:

couldn't actually take any of that money out if even if we did

Unknown:

sell it to like, have it for ourselves. Or you know, even if

Unknown:

we were to trade it, we'd have to like pay a lot of fees to

Unknown:

steam. Which was like not necessarily a problem for us.

Unknown:

But it was kind of this weird, strange feeling where it's like

Unknown:

you have this community that was really like valuing something

Unknown:

that we had, that felt really cool. But it was very controlled

Unknown:

and was very, like, I guess quote, unquote, centralized. You

Unknown:

could think of it as where it's like this game studio really

Unknown:

kind of controlling something that we felt like, was something

Unknown:

that we had a lot of emotional attachment to that the community

Unknown:

felt like it valued a lot. So that was like a big inspiring

Unknown:

moment for like, looking back and being like, Oh, wow, like

Unknown:

what if we actually had players where they had ownership of the

Unknown:

different digital goods that they think are really important

Unknown:

for them as gamers?

Lindsay Poss:

Okay, so it sounds like for you that cutting out

Lindsay Poss:

kind of the middlemen in the game to play a relationship was

Lindsay Poss:

a really important aspect of blockchain technology of Weber

Lindsay Poss:

definitely of crypto.

Unknown:

But I think it goes even further, right. So I would

Unknown:

say like once a player able to not have such a centralized

Unknown:

authority, declaring what's valuable and what's not, right.

Unknown:

So once you're giving over a little more control over to the

Unknown:

player, a little more ownership to them, then you actually can

Unknown:

start creating systems that are incentivizing different

Unknown:

behaviors and valuing different parts of how players interact

Unknown:

with games on a larger scale. Right. So I think that's what's

Unknown:

really excited about what we're trying to do is once you kind of

Unknown:

allow players to take different, like maybe digital content that

Unknown:

a game is giving them, and they're able to transact it with

Unknown:

other people and find value it in different marketplaces, then

Unknown:

you can actually start valuing things like players skill and

Unknown:

even leaders community behavior and commitment to contributing

Unknown:

to that community. So that's really was like a huge reason

Unknown:

why we got inspired to make our game Sirocco, which is how can

Unknown:

we look at cryptocurrency in a way that we can value players

Unknown:

avamar their skill level, the quality of either playing or

Unknown:

game, as well as like how they're contributing to it.

Lindsay Poss:

I absolutely want to get into kind of the the very

Lindsay Poss:

unique mechanisms you all are putting into your game. But I

Lindsay Poss:

also just want to make sure that there's an understanding of how

Lindsay Poss:

this, this how the entire online marketplace kind of changes,

Lindsay Poss:

because what it sounding like to me is not only are you cutting

Lindsay Poss:

out the middleman as in players and people who play the game,

Lindsay Poss:

and then own the rewards or skills or behaviors or whatever

Lindsay Poss:

that reward might be, but also that that community is

Lindsay Poss:

determining what those rewards are. So you're kind of changing

Lindsay Poss:

the economies in a sense in these games from I don't know, I

Lindsay Poss:

a one sided interaction to a two is the best way I can I can

Lindsay Poss:

think about it is before it was one sided it was it was games,

Lindsay Poss:

determining what was valuable, and then going through game

Lindsay Poss:

mechanisms to sell that. And now not only are players allowed to

Lindsay Poss:

determine what's valuable, but they're also able to create

Lindsay Poss:

their own mechanisms to buy, sell and trade those those goods

Lindsay Poss:

or behaviors worth value.

Unknown:

Oh, absolutely. No, I think that's 100% what it's

Unknown:

about I'm like, really? You know, it's kind of sad because

Unknown:

there's a lot of negativity on web three. Right now,

Unknown:

particularly because, you know, there's going to talk about this

Unknown:

later. But there's a lot of issues with scams and NF T's and

Unknown:

all that kind of dynamic that's going on in the world right now.

Unknown:

But really, if you look at what web two gaming is right now,

Unknown:

which is kind of the free to play business model is it's it's

Unknown:

very exploitative. And it's actually, you can kind of think

Unknown:

of it, I almost personally think of it as it's, it's, it feels

Unknown:

even a little bit dirtier than what's going on in NF T's. Now,

Unknown:

not all games are like this. But if you look at a lot of like how

Unknown:

mobile games look at getting players to make purchasable

Unknown:

content, right purchase digital items, it's really trying to

Unknown:

exploit people's sociology to get them ultimately, just to

Unknown:

purchase as many different digital goods as possible. But

Unknown:

the player never has any of those introverts who have no

Unknown:

ownership of it. They have not a lot of agency over how they can

Unknown:

use those things. So yeah, it I think, for what three, really

Unknown:

what we're looking at is like, how can we empower players to

Unknown:

really have more agency over how they're relating to games as a

Unknown:

whole? You know, I think the dream ultimately is like,

Unknown:

players feel like they have more ownership over their time, their

Unknown:

attention, and every game that they're playing. So it's not

Unknown:

just one particular thing. But it's more of an equitable

Unknown:

relationship between the two.

Lindsay Poss:

That makes sense. And as someone who previously

Lindsay Poss:

worked in tech policy, I can tell you that the loot box less

Lindsay Poss:

slot machine style games are definitely some of the most of

Lindsay Poss:

interest to regulators at the moment. So there might be some

Lindsay Poss:

dis incentivization there to also move away from that from a

Lindsay Poss:

development perspective, or hopefully there will be I'm Max,

Lindsay Poss:

I want to ask you a little bit about this, because you are

Lindsay Poss:

someone who has worked on kind of the partnership side, the

Lindsay Poss:

community building side. So how do you and and Jack is over this

Lindsay Poss:

a lot. But how do you perceive this? Having changing kind of

Lindsay Poss:

the way we think about gaming? Like how does this fit into the

Lindsay Poss:

idea of the metaverse? How do you think companies and players

Lindsay Poss:

themselves will, will adapt and progress as we move more into

Lindsay Poss:

web freestyle gameplay?

Unknown:

Yeah, I think it's actually gonna have a pretty

Unknown:

profound impact that we really won't probably see, you know,

Unknown:

really come to fruition for quite a few years. I just kind

Unknown:

of like on a high level, we kind of talked about like the

Unknown:

transition between web two to web three. One of the things

Unknown:

that web three really brings to the internet isn't ability to

Unknown:

monetize things built on the internet without advertising.

Unknown:

You know, like, the big problem of web two is like, how do you

Unknown:

how do we monetize followers and people using these websites,

Unknown:

whatever you can put a paywall up. But most people don't like

Unknown:

that it doesn't work really well. So like How does anyone

Unknown:

make money? And advertising was kind of the not the ideal

Unknown:

solution that we've kind of just grown used to over time. Web

Unknown:

three makes it possible that you can actually monetize

Unknown:

experiences. And you know, what will eventually be the

Unknown:

metaverse. Without advertising, that will probably always be

Unknown:

advertising for sure. But it won't be the sole way or method

Unknown:

that a platform makes money. So I think that's a really big

Unknown:

deal. I think that actually, you know, to Jack's point really

Unknown:

empowers the community in a significant way. But I think it

Unknown:

also means that the the metaverse is a something that is

Unknown:

more complicated than just one company making this massive

Unknown:

platform where everyone exists and kind of like the 3d world. I

Unknown:

think that it's I think that's actually less likely to be the

Unknown:

future we see because of Technology Prize.

Lindsay Poss:

Gotcha. Can you expand a little bit of how you

Lindsay Poss:

see companies monetizing experiences, what's that look

Lindsay Poss:

like? Yeah, I

Unknown:

think it's, it's going to be really interesting. I

Unknown:

think it's not clear like what model will be the dominant one,

Unknown:

you know, I'd say that like axes infinity is a model for a

Unknown:

metaverse. You know, I think it is really strong argument that

Unknown:

it already has its own metaverse. I think the the

Unknown:

metadata of it is not just a the 3d world that I think a lot of

Unknown:

Facebook and data kind of, you know, you know, after I sold the

Unknown:

world and so they're, they're the monetization structures that

Unknown:

are, you know, similar like any name economy and the economy,

Unknown:

you know, takes fees, all transactions and the players get

Unknown:

to make money in some ways. But I could also see it being

Unknown:

something we may be way more traditional and you know, and

Unknown:

you know, more in your life. where, you know, you're just

Unknown:

buying products. And that's just a form. And then and, you know,

Unknown:

buy the things you're interested in. And that's about it. And you

Unknown:

don't have to worry about the description or or advertising.

Lindsay Poss:

So the trains or the fees on Oh, my gosh, I just

Lindsay Poss:

totally lost the word. But the Oh, transaction fees, there we

Lindsay Poss:

go. transaction fees are something though that, Jack,

Lindsay Poss:

you've already mentioned as kind of a downside to what web two is

Lindsay Poss:

doing. I'm just Yeah, I'm just trying to understand kind of

Lindsay Poss:

what the, what the difference will be in terms of protecting

Lindsay Poss:

people who are playing? Yeah, similar monetization structures

Lindsay Poss:

that leaked?

Unknown:

Yeah, so I guess that's a really good point, I think the

Unknown:

the, what the Yes, percent, it'll be a huge difference, then

Unknown:

from maybe their apple and seeing a lot of 30% each

Unknown:

transaction that is likely to I think bra dramatically closer to

Unknown:

like, single digit percentages, because I think what's gonna

Unknown:

happen, my personal story, completely wrong here, that

Unknown:

everyone has a very, very high volume of transactions, because

Unknown:

it will be just fine, you know, down just a little game, I think

Unknown:

the transaction will be at a very, very deep every, every

Unknown:

time you interact, or Asian products, I think there'll be a

Unknown:

lot of fraud at that point, 5011 range, and, and really all, you

Unknown:

know, you know, the network level.

Unknown:

And I think the larger issue is, studios right now that we're

Unknown:

running into is that they have these downloadable content that

Unknown:

they're selling to players, and then players are buying it. And

Unknown:

then if a player wants to maybe in a certain case, they have a

Unknown:

skin they want to trade it is taking another 30% off of off of

Unknown:

that. And then you even have situations like Roblox where

Unknown:

players are actually making games themselves, and then you

Unknown:

have the company taking 80% or more. And that's kind of I

Unknown:

think, the unacceptable relationship, it's not that you

Unknown:

shouldn't be able to support the company that's creating the

Unknown:

product. And, you know, games in the future should always be

Unknown:

valued, right. They should be bringing in resources from

Unknown:

players when they're building things on those platforms. But

Unknown:

at the same time, how can we have platforms feel mean players

Unknown:

feel like they have their data, their time, their commitment to

Unknown:

a game is being valued as well. And so it's really about

Unknown:

creating a more equitable relationship.

Lindsay Poss:

Okay, that makes more sense. There's almost I

Lindsay Poss:

mean, I hesitate to use this exact framing, but it's almost

Lindsay Poss:

like a tax rather than a percentage cut. Like, it's the

Lindsay Poss:

way I see robots and other platforms is almost like they're

Lindsay Poss:

taking ownership. Yeah, this is I guess, exactly what you're

Lindsay Poss:

saying they're taking somewhat ownership of your digital goods

Lindsay Poss:

and your digital property, whereas this is more so a, I

Lindsay Poss:

don't know, sort of, yes, it's a tax,

Unknown:

I think, exactly. I think that's the right way of

Unknown:

thinking about it. And then the thing that I think Jack just

Unknown:

brought up that's really important is that it's not all

Unknown:

going to be, you know, money last, because I think the future

Unknown:

is where you're actually rewarded and compensated for

Unknown:

your own contribution to the platform or to the content

Unknown:

that's being made, you know, platforms like Twitch, you know,

Unknown:

they, they have to pay streamers, you know, money for,

Unknown:

for running ads, they have to give them a cut of the

Unknown:

subscriptions, because if they, if they don't, the streamers

Unknown:

won't be there making content. But I think there's going to be

Unknown:

even a more equitable model where the content creators are

Unknown:

actually maybe getting the majority of the of that, of that

Unknown:

revenue of the sum of those fees. And the platform itself

Unknown:

actually takes the minority I could definitely see that being

Unknown:

the ones

Lindsay Poss:

that makes a lot of sense. But the other thing

Lindsay Poss:

about this is that definitely incentivizes the growth of

Lindsay Poss:

really large platforms then because if you're talking about

Lindsay Poss:

minor fees, then you you do have to accrue a lot of them in order

Lindsay Poss:

to be profitable and to continue. I don't know making

Lindsay Poss:

money. So one of the I mean, everything that's been happening

Lindsay Poss:

in January the massive amounts of mergers and we're seeing a

Lindsay Poss:

little bit more concentration in in studios, companies, we're

Lindsay Poss:

seeing companies get bigger, that's not necessarily a bad

Lindsay Poss:

thing at all. Um, but when you're thinking about this are

Lindsay Poss:

are you envisioning a future where there's a lot of larger

Lindsay Poss:

companies collecting? Smaller percentages? Are you thinking of

Lindsay Poss:

a lot of smaller companies? I think how would those smaller

Lindsay Poss:

companies survive? So

Unknown:

just to start, like, especially with games, I think

Unknown:

it's really important that you have content that players can

Unknown:

purchase that they think is valuable, that supports the game

Unknown:

studio. And that doesn't just have to be high volume, where

Unknown:

you want it to be high volume. And something like you have

Unknown:

these kind of fees associated with it, that are more

Unknown:

equitable, is when you have players transacting content that

Unknown:

they value themselves, whether that's like a skin that the

Unknown:

community creates, or even a skin that a game studio sells to

Unknown:

a player, that should be more of an equitable transaction for the

Unknown:

player to another player, I think that's the big

Unknown:

distinguishing factor is that you like there has to be ways

Unknown:

for small companies to make money and players want that,

Unknown:

right. That's how we that's we look at like crowdfunding. And

Unknown:

what was amazing about Kickstarter in the early teens,

Unknown:

right, is a lot of players want to fund the projects that they

Unknown:

think are really exciting, and the games that they really love.

Unknown:

So it's like that shouldn't go away. We just want to have a

Unknown:

better system in place, or when they're valuing each other's

Unknown:

content and the content that they're creating a community.

Lindsay Poss:

Okay, that makes a lot more sense. So yeah, that's

Lindsay Poss:

exactly how small businesses would survive is by selling

Lindsay Poss:

their goods to people for Yeah, and not having an enormous cut

Lindsay Poss:

taken out of it. Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Okay, well, we

Lindsay Poss:

have discussed the economies of web three at length, but what I

Lindsay Poss:

really, really wanted to bring you all on for was to talk about

Lindsay Poss:

the mechanism that we talked about when I first met you all.

Lindsay Poss:

So this is, this is the big thing that drew me and that that

Lindsay Poss:

made me want to bring you on this podcast was, you all talked

Lindsay Poss:

a lot about incentivizing good behavior as a way to kind of

Lindsay Poss:

root out toxicity from the jump. And so I just would love to hear

Lindsay Poss:

that the whole spiel again, because I think that's this is

Lindsay Poss:

really cool, it's a really great thing to share. So tell me about

Lindsay Poss:

that mechanism that you've built within your game, or that you're

Lindsay Poss:

working on.

Unknown:

So we're really excited about not only just what happens

Unknown:

with transacting, you know, different community graded

Unknown:

skins, and things like that, which we think web three will

Unknown:

empower really well. But there's also this other element where

Unknown:

once you have communities that are able to value each other's

Unknown:

goods, how can we as a game studio, then promote good

Unknown:

behavior in our community, with some of those different

Unknown:

currencies that we're creating, right. So in our game, we

Unknown:

essentially have these rewards that you get for both being a

Unknown:

really good player, but also for being a really well ranked and

Unknown:

just generally a positive contributor to the community. So

Unknown:

let's say after a match in our game, you're ranked for being

Unknown:

helpful for teaching new players, or just for not being

Unknown:

toxic, those players will actually increase their, quote

Unknown:

unquote, honor rating in our game, and get more rewards for

Unknown:

it. So you know, in our whole system, not only do you just

Unknown:

have to be a skilled player, to get the best rewards, you also

Unknown:

have to be a positive member of your community. And someone who

Unknown:

teaches young new players how to play, as well as maybe

Unknown:

contributes well to the forums or the discourse outside of it.

Unknown:

All these things contribute to how us as a game studio values

Unknown:

them in our community.

Unknown:

And to add to that, the, what we've really observed is that

Unknown:

just banning people, or, or removing ways for people to

Unknown:

communicate is not a great solution to having a better

Unknown:

richer community, you throw a lot of good out with that. When

Unknown:

you do those things. Obviously, there's some behavior that you

Unknown:

want to get rid of and removed. And banning will always be a

Unknown:

thing that exists but adding a positive incentive for person,

Unknown:

for anyone, any player to be a little bit kinder, or really

Unknown:

meaningfully helpful to other players. And there's a real

Unknown:

upside to treating people well around you. We think it'd be a

Unknown:

really great and powerful incentive, but it still won't

Unknown:

solve all the problems are still going to have some toxicity. And

Unknown:

one of the things that I observed when I was at Twitch,

Unknown:

because this has always been a huge problem. We've been really,

Unknown:

really making sure that our chat on their platform is as fun and

Unknown:

attractive as possible. And one of the things that I learned

Unknown:

watching communities on Twitch was that a role model is

Unknown:

critical to having a really healthy community, a positive

Unknown:

community. And so, if you have the positive incentive that

Unknown:

encourages more people to be Do a role model for the rest of the

Unknown:

community, and to show that this behavior is the one that's

Unknown:

rewarded. This is the behavior that we want to see here in this

Unknown:

community that does more than any type of banning or threats

Unknown:

against the community to actually do this be positive and

Unknown:

having a good time and enjoy the conversation. And so, though

Unknown:

we're talking about incentives, the problem is more complicated.

Unknown:

There's just I think the solution is really kind of evil.

Unknown:

And usually the incentives really worthwhile. But it's

Unknown:

really it will always come down to this evening working with

Unknown:

community members.

Lindsay Poss:

There's two things that I want to just point out

Lindsay Poss:

again, for everyone who's listening. The first is that I

Lindsay Poss:

think it's really good that you're offering reward for

Lindsay Poss:

helping new players, I am someone who is not into hardcore

Lindsay Poss:

gaming. But one of the biggest reasons why is because I'm

Lindsay Poss:

terrified to start that that barrier to entry can be really

Lindsay Poss:

high, especially if you don't grow up with it. And I did not

Lindsay Poss:

grow up with gaming in my household. And as an adult, and

Lindsay Poss:

even as a teenager, I was not, I never felt competent enough to

Lindsay Poss:

pick up a controller at a friend's house and give it a go.

Lindsay Poss:

So I think that that is a huge kind of barrier to entry that

Lindsay Poss:

you're directly addressing. The second thing is I like the

Lindsay Poss:

approach that you take the banning, because I also think

Lindsay Poss:

that the more you ban people, the further corners and the

Lindsay Poss:

further dark places you're forcing them into. So allowing

Lindsay Poss:

people the space to learn and grow and not just automatically

Lindsay Poss:

assuming that everyone who does something that's poor behavior

Lindsay Poss:

is a bad person. Is that good? I mean, I think that could be a

Lindsay Poss:

lesson way outside of the gaming community. But that's, that's

Lindsay Poss:

it? Yeah, I

Unknown:

mean, it's really good way. League of Legends or Dota,

Unknown:

or, which is the same genre for us, it's the biggest problem new

Unknown:

players have is just an incredible amount of knowledge

Unknown:

that they have to accumulate in a relatively short amount of

Unknown:

time just to play on the same level as the opponents are going

Unknown:

to be up against, right? That's kind of the bane of all

Unknown:

competitive games at its core. So really, what the whole system

Unknown:

we're trying to design is, how do we deal with this core

Unknown:

problem of new players, having an easier time of dealing with

Unknown:

that cognitive load that just so great, and leads to a lot of

Unknown:

negative behavior, because no one wants to have someone on

Unknown:

their team that doesn't know what they're doing? Right?

Unknown:

Everyone wants the player who's able to play the best and able

Unknown:

to help them win the game. But really, we really want to look

Unknown:

at it as like, how can we make those new players valuable to

Unknown:

all players? Right? So that there's an opportunity, or even

Unknown:

an experienced player to teach someone and to be rewarded for

Unknown:

that? Because that's something us as a company value.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah. Yeah, I really do just think that that's

Lindsay Poss:

a revolutionary approach. I mean, I, I live with, I live

Lindsay Poss:

with a gamer, and I've seen him quit several times when he, he's

Lindsay Poss:

working with really young people, or really inexperienced

Lindsay Poss:

people just giving up on it super quick, and not thinking

Lindsay Poss:

that time. And part of it is understandable, right? Like you

Lindsay Poss:

want to log on and you want to play. It's like, you know, I

Lindsay Poss:

play real, I play a lot of basketball, and it's hard

Lindsay Poss:

playing with seven year olds. It's sort of similar in that

Lindsay Poss:

regard. But it's also in your right, it can be totally

Lindsay Poss:

rewarding and valuable to actually take time out of your

Lindsay Poss:

day to do that for someone else, and then your only may be

Lindsay Poss:

better. So I think that's a really mean, I'm basically

Lindsay Poss:

repeating everything you said. But I think that that's a

Lindsay Poss:

really, really revolutionary approach to the way that a lot

Lindsay Poss:

of things are done. Yeah. And that's

Unknown:

just really like that, is that you give players

Unknown:

options, right? So whether your partner is someone who, okay,

Unknown:

maybe he only wants to play as competitive players, and that's

Unknown:

fine, we can give them the option to do that. But maybe if

Unknown:

they're more open to playing with new players, or even in the

Unknown:

case of like women who deal with a disproportionate amount of

Unknown:

harassment and toxicity when they're gaming, like maybe we

Unknown:

could have a pool for players that are really prioritizing,

Unknown:

having a positive environment for them to learn and or for

Unknown:

them to play. And so I think that's a huge important part.

Unknown:

It's like how do we create spaces for people that are

Unknown:

looking for certain experiences?

Lindsay Poss:

Well, that is one benefit to the approach that

Lindsay Poss:

you're taking is that you're able to differentiate those

Lindsay Poss:

people within exactly experience and actually provide them with

Lindsay Poss:

what they want. Which I think the whole I mean, the whole here

Lindsay Poss:

on the whole, it seems like what you all are doing is trying

Lindsay Poss:

really hard to listen to audience feedback. Without

Lindsay Poss:

letting this is the problem with game development, right? There's

Lindsay Poss:

always a lot of audience feedback. Nobody ever knows

Lindsay Poss:

really what to do with it because audience, audience, the

Lindsay Poss:

audience is not always the game developer either. So it can be

Lindsay Poss:

hard to give everyone exactly what they want. But I feel like

Lindsay Poss:

what you're doing is breaking it down into smaller chunks, and

Lindsay Poss:

then allowing people to kind of choose their own experience and

Lindsay Poss:

saying, If this isn't what you want, try over here. And if if

Lindsay Poss:

someone can't find exactly what they want on your platform,

Lindsay Poss:

that's, that's, you know, you're going to have those people. But

Lindsay Poss:

on the whole, you're allowing everyone to have a more

Lindsay Poss:

differentiated experience than just one simple, straightforward

Lindsay Poss:

game.

Unknown:

Yeah, absolutely. And I'd say in addition to that,

Unknown:

it's really important that we make some meaningful progress in

Unknown:

this direction out of the gate, because older forms quickly and

Unknown:

bold, all norms around the game in the space are going to

Unknown:

perform relatively quickly. It'll be really more normal or

Unknown:

positive ones. With mobile games that come out, you know, if you

Unknown:

look at the community around, versus the media around there,

Unknown:

they're worlds apart. But you could argue either almost same

Unknown:

day, or rock competitors out there. Until like, why, how is

Unknown:

that possible? Why are those nice cultures? And I think it

Unknown:

really comes down to like the norms of communication. And then

Unknown:

how to sample? Or are eating, eating being with your team?

Unknown:

This is the law, female gamers playing. Counter Strike.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, getting into that. Getting into that deeper.

Lindsay Poss:

How do you think that the environment in CS GO? We'll

Lindsay Poss:

limit it eventually. I mean, CS GO has been around for a long

Lindsay Poss:

time, it does have an absolutely thriving scene. So I'm not

Lindsay Poss:

trying to suggest that one day CS GO is going to disappear,

Lindsay Poss:

because there's toxic communication on the platform.

Lindsay Poss:

But what are the downsides to it teams that have been around a

Lindsay Poss:

while that have this as a root problem? Versus

Unknown:

ultimately, yeah, I mean, ultimately, I think

Unknown:

they're limiting their own future growth. The number of

Unknown:

people that they can potentially attract to play their game is

Unknown:

hugely diminished. If you're, if the community folder on your

Unknown:

game is not appealing to an entire vendor. Like that's a

Unknown:

that's a huge problem. And I think it's something that, you

Unknown:

know, I've seen a lot of, you know, game developers say they

Unknown:

really care about, and I believe that I really give them the

Unknown:

benefit of the doubt. But they do want to limit pain, I think

Unknown:

it is very difficult. And when we have a culture, you know, the

Unknown:

former pain for very long time, maybe they didn't know what

Unknown:

mattered, and until recently, it's really hard to change it.

Unknown:

It's very becomes very entrenched.

Lindsay Poss:

Do you all feel as if this is a function of web two

Lindsay Poss:

versus web three gaming? Or do you think that web two can

Lindsay Poss:

adapt? And is it possible to incorporate some of the elements

Lindsay Poss:

that you're working on incorporating to build

Lindsay Poss:

communities in a different way? Or do you really see this more

Lindsay Poss:

as a web three is unique you're in in our ability to go this

Lindsay Poss:

far? It's obviously something because

Unknown:

we've seen it. It's a tree where I would say as a

Unknown:

great example, you've seen it Final Fantasy already, where

Unknown:

it's really positive, very worried example, like streaming

Unknown:

Final Fantasy team. Very well, no. But I think there's

Unknown:

different really well, that is because I think the difference

Unknown:

is that the value this is the game the game push the metrics

Unknown:

of the game, also, but three correction tools, I think

Unknown:

whatever you find that is from the ground up, maybe more

Unknown:

deliberately hoping that that's the way the ground up. And

Unknown:

I think one thing that you see, that's the way and the problem

Unknown:

with online gaming, to anything, any game deals with this to a

Unknown:

certain degree, but competitive games struggle with it the most.

Unknown:

And the problem, I think, for a lot of web two games is that a

Unknown:

lot of their monetization strategy, a lot of the systems

Unknown:

they have in place are kind of structured around this one, one

Unknown:

to one relationship with a player where the player is

Unknown:

unable to value you know, their own contributions and different

Unknown:

aspects of like, their skill and, and different currencies

Unknown:

that they're accumulating in game, right? There's just not

Unknown:

that structure in place. So I think web two games could do it.

Unknown:

It would just take a lot of rebuilding and rethinking our

Unknown:

spelling,

Lindsay Poss:

so yeah, go ahead. Okay, Okay, I just wanted to

Lindsay Poss:

make sure that I got that. So I just want to put a fine point on

Lindsay Poss:

this. But what what you're saying is that there's a better

Lindsay Poss:

opportunity to bake Inclusion, Diversity Equity in from day one

Lindsay Poss:

on web three, because there's more of a two way marketplace

Lindsay Poss:

than it is to adapt those tools into into current web to game,

Unknown:

I think there's there are some things definitely have

Unknown:

at their disposal. Like, you could look at different ways of

Unknown:

using skins in order to reward players, I think those things

Unknown:

could fit in web to the promises, what really gives you

Unknown:

this ability to, I think incentivize good behavior, is

Unknown:

having that gradient of positivity, or, you know, you

Unknown:

know, that ranking system where you can kind of show, like what

Unknown:

level players at and for that player to feel like they have a

Unknown:

direct way of seeing that value that they're contributing.

Unknown:

Right. So I just think that takes a lot of work. And, and

Unknown:

what's so exciting about cryptocurrency is that you can

Unknown:

really implement that pretty easily, it's much easier than

Unknown:

just trying to have a giant centralized server that you're,

Unknown:

you know, creating, creating this new kind of profile system

Unknown:

for players on.

Lindsay Poss:

Okay, okay, that makes more sense. Oh, my gosh,

Lindsay Poss:

this has been so interesting. Okay, so I want to broaden the

Lindsay Poss:

scope a little bit, um, with crypto who have three, all these

Lindsay Poss:

other things. And you brought it up earlier, Jack, that NF T's

Lindsay Poss:

have been a big part of this, and a lot of what we've been

Lindsay Poss:

talking about with trading digital assets, that obviously,

Lindsay Poss:

is essentially what it is, you know, singular tokens that are

Lindsay Poss:

of value in some way. So there's been a lot of backlash to a lot

Lindsay Poss:

of these concepts. And you all, as web developers are, have this

Lindsay Poss:

risk of imposing similar backlash on yourself, just

Lindsay Poss:

because there's been a lot of negativity in Internet

Lindsay Poss:

communities about this kind of development. And I some of it

Lindsay Poss:

maybe rightfully, put out there just there's been a lot of crazy

Lindsay Poss:

stories, there's been a lot of scam stories. I think that

Lindsay Poss:

there's a lot that also gets overlooked because it's not as

Lindsay Poss:

exciting and scandalous to cover in the news. But how are you all

Lindsay Poss:

thinking about your messaging around this what the current

Lindsay Poss:

environment looks like? or NF T's for web three? Just what are

Lindsay Poss:

you doing to try to build your own community that feels safe

Lindsay Poss:

and comfortable with what you're doing? I'll jump in. Not

Lindsay Poss:

everyone at once, please.

Unknown:

Yeah, I mean, I think we're, there's a lot of this

Unknown:

basic tools that we want to be building into our game that

Unknown:

protect people as much as possible so that they're not

Unknown:

victims to scams in the general like space and ecosystem. I

Unknown:

think, you know, in general, in games, there are a lot of scams,

Unknown:

I would say that I myself be been a victim of numerous scams

Unknown:

and video games more more, or maybe the older ones like Diablo

Unknown:

two where someone told me they could duplicate my item. And

Unknown:

then they took it from me they stole it. So I think there's a

Unknown:

bit of a This has always existed in video games. But now we're

Unknown:

all hearing about it, because it's now something that can

Unknown:

happen at a larger scale. And it's far more visible. But that

Unknown:

doesn't necessarily, I see no way excuses it, I just think

Unknown:

that's a bit of a factor at play. And in terms of like

Unknown:

convincing, like cameras that this is maybe actually good for

Unknown:

them and the games they play, it's going to be tough, because

Unknown:

there's been so many instances where game publishers and

Unknown:

developers have really taken advantage of gamers and their

Unknown:

passion for a game and either put up massive paywalls for

Unknown:

content, or microtransactions that are very predatory. So

Unknown:

they're, they're concerned, the fear, and the backlash is very

Unknown:

warranted. So I completely sympathize. Like I'm one of

Unknown:

those gamers who is also not a fan of those predatory, you

Unknown:

know, practices. And I think what I hope at least that web

Unknown:

three has to offer it because there's always going to be a

Unknown:

dark side to it. There's always going to be NF T's that are

Unknown:

scams, there are going to be people that are using NF t's

Unknown:

just to capitalize on the hype, and just trying to extract more

Unknown:

money from people. But there's also a version where, you know,

Unknown:

like we've talked about already, where the player gets to really

Unknown:

have ownership over the things that they're buying. It's

Unknown:

totally true. One of the critiques is like, Well, if the

Unknown:

game goes to down, then that item is still doesn't have

Unknown:

value. That's absolutely true. It doesn't it's not a perfect

Unknown:

solve. It's not like you can take your skin and stick it into

Unknown:

another game, the other developer has to allow that to

Unknown:

happen. But at least that when we make our game, we can create

Unknown:

skins, that people can go sell. Just like the story Jack told

Unknown:

about the the skin, the NF, the the knife we got from Cisco, we

Unknown:

were only able to sell that, which is really cool. But we're

Unknown:

only able to do that because there's an entire marketplace

Unknown:

that's already built. And we're you know, in a walled garden,

Unknown:

you could say, but it was basically a good thing that

Unknown:

there was a marketplace. But for us, we can't build that whole

Unknown:

marketplace on our own. But they do exist out there. And so I

Unknown:

think that's the it's more of the freedom of choice that NF

Unknown:

T's have to offer people it's not, you know, I think there is

Unknown:

too much hype around it, there is too much over emphasis of

Unknown:

like, this is the new cool thing, when it's actually just a

Unknown:

kind of boring addition of technology, that just gives you

Unknown:

more choice, which is actually a really incredible thing. But the

Unknown:

technology itself isn't really anything that don't you get

Unknown:

excited over, it's when they get the skin that they can then take

Unknown:

to another platform to trade to sell or to buy. That's that's

Unknown:

when it's exciting. It's because that's, you know, expanding your

Unknown:

experience of the game.

Unknown:

Yeah, I think that's a, it's such a great point that it's,

Unknown:

it's really a tool for games going forward. And it basically

Unknown:

is just making what already exists with downloadable

Unknown:

content. More useful for both the developers and the player,

Unknown:

right? What's really cool about us as developers too, is we can

Unknown:

make these skins if they're NF T's have data associated with

Unknown:

them. So they can track different stats, they can change

Unknown:

if they have, you know, certain stats associated with them

Unknown:

unlocked. You know, there's a lot of really cool options for

Unknown:

us developers, once we make them. So it's less so much about

Unknown:

just having the idea of NF T's and selling them somehow makes

Unknown:

your game good. That's not what it is at all. And I think part

Unknown:

of the issue so much is that a lot of the critiques you hear

Unknown:

about NF T's are good ones, right? But to me, they're less

Unknown:

about NF T's or crypto itself. And they're more about like

Unknown:

culture, or even like how capitalism wants to value

Unknown:

certain things, right? Like, art is such a weird circumstance to

Unknown:

value, right? Like, this is a classic issue that we've dealt

Unknown:

with as a society for hundreds of years, right? Like how can

Unknown:

Picasso is put a line on a piece of page and sell for millions of

Unknown:

dollars, right? It's kind of like Pokemon cards. Let's look

Unknown:

at like chars art selling for hundreds of 1000s of dollars.

Unknown:

Right? So I think those things are always going to exist and

Unknown:

and be a question that we're asking ourselves, but I don't

Unknown:

think NF T's are the issue. It's, it's how we relate to

Unknown:

them?

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, I think that's a extremely fair

Lindsay Poss:

characterization. There has been a lot of hype and a lot of

Lindsay Poss:

negative stories that doesn't Yeah, I actually like the

Lindsay Poss:

qualifier that the underlying tech is fairly boring. I think

Lindsay Poss:

that that's a really actually good way of thinking about it.

Lindsay Poss:

Because you don't really have to understand the centralization

Lindsay Poss:

versus decentralization in in the web space and in

Lindsay Poss:

connectivity and networks to under to just log on to a game

Lindsay Poss:

and play it and realize that that's a different a completely

Lindsay Poss:

different experience than the one we've had. And I don't think

Lindsay Poss:

anyone, when when one turned into web two, I don't think a

Lindsay Poss:

lot of people jumped up and said, Oh, now we're in what do

Lindsay Poss:

um, or at least, they have not lasted the test of time. So I

Lindsay Poss:

don't think I mean, I certainly didn't know that when one or web

Lindsay Poss:

two existed before web three started becoming a term that

Lindsay Poss:

everyone threw around. So I like this idea of a more boring

Lindsay Poss:

transition. I think that that the almost, it's a good way of

Lindsay Poss:

looking at it because the average consumer doesn't need to

Lindsay Poss:

know, the underlying tech and all of the the technology that

Lindsay Poss:

it's built upon in order to just log on it, joy it the same way

Lindsay Poss:

that we have so far.

Unknown:

Yep, I wish it was more boring than it is. But here we

Unknown:

are. Yeah, exactly. It's all Twitter's fault.

Lindsay Poss:

I say that as someone who loves Twitter, by

Lindsay Poss:

the way, that's totally qualified to critique it. Um,

Lindsay Poss:

okay, so I do one last segment at the end of the show. But

Lindsay Poss:

before we get into that, I want to do a quick summary of what we

Lindsay Poss:

talked about. So we started with a long or not long, but we

Lindsay Poss:

started with a good history and a good understanding of what web

Lindsay Poss:

three actually means. So web one static pages to web two, more

Lindsay Poss:

flash and interactivity to web three, which is with its

Lindsay Poss:

decentralized platform allows ownership for you users all over

Lindsay Poss:

the internet, and gives people better ownership their digital

Lindsay Poss:

goods also means a two sided marketplace. So players are able

Lindsay Poss:

to own their own items and decide what is valuable when

Lindsay Poss:

trading those items. When it comes to companies moving on to

Lindsay Poss:

more web platforms, we talked about how there's going to be a

Lindsay Poss:

different monetization structure, transaction fees will

Lindsay Poss:

drop. So companies, there'll be more b2b, b2c, and C to C

Lindsay Poss:

transactions, what I really got out of that is that it's

Lindsay Poss:

actually a chance for all kinds of different transactions to

Lindsay Poss:

take place. Rather than logging on to a platform and having to

Lindsay Poss:

go through that platforms. transaction system, which can be

Lindsay Poss:

quite I don't know if predatory is the right word, but quite

Lindsay Poss:

quite harsh, I suppose is a better way of thinking on its

Lindsay Poss:

users. And so companies will be able to make money all kinds of

Lindsay Poss:

different ways, whether it's a small company directly taking

Lindsay Poss:

ownership and selling goods, or a large company collecting a

Lindsay Poss:

small digital tax or kind of sales tax on the sale of a great

Lindsay Poss:

net of goods, or transactions. And we talked a lot about thing

Lindsay Poss:

that I was most excited to talk about, which was the way that

Lindsay Poss:

you are developing your game to reward good behavior both. And

Lindsay Poss:

to kind of address some of the root problems that we see in

Lindsay Poss:

gaming, one being the entry of new players, and that huge

Lindsay Poss:

barrier to entry on creating a space for that, while also

Lindsay Poss:

maintaining a space for competitive players. So allowing

Lindsay Poss:

different audiences to have different experiences depending

Lindsay Poss:

on what they want, talked a lot about having role models. And as

Lindsay Poss:

an alternative to banning allowing people to actually see

Lindsay Poss:

what behaviors are, are rewarded to help grow the community and

Lindsay Poss:

build it in a positive way. We apply that a little bit to what

Lindsay Poss:

web two games are doing. But largely, it's, at these days,

Lindsay Poss:

just kind of easier to build something new, where it's not a

Lindsay Poss:

problem in the first place. That doesn't mean that there's not

Lindsay Poss:

things that web two games, and especially legacy games that

Lindsay Poss:

have been around for 10 or 20 years, good implement. And I

Lindsay Poss:

think you all have great ideas on what they could implement, or

Lindsay Poss:

at least a framework what they could implement, but it is

Lindsay Poss:

obviously harder to do that on legacy system. We also talked

Lindsay Poss:

about how it's harder because they can't create profiles in

Lindsay Poss:

several places. It's one centralized system where people

Lindsay Poss:

are constantly acting in transacting makes a little bit

Lindsay Poss:

harder to incorporate some of the elements. And when it comes

Lindsay Poss:

to the metaverse, crypto kind of as a whole, gamers have to be

Lindsay Poss:

shown what's good for them, and also shown that they don't need

Lindsay Poss:

to have an opinion on the underlying tech that it can be a

Lindsay Poss:

seamless and boring transition for them. And how Twitter has so

Lindsay Poss:

far ruined all that. But for the last little bit, I like to ask

Lindsay Poss:

all of my guests to do a moment of reflection. So this is a

Lindsay Poss:

chance just for you to think back on, on what you've done.

Lindsay Poss:

What you're happy with what you're maybe unhappy with. I'm

Lindsay Poss:

looking at you Maxim, the Diablo scam. And just to I would love

Lindsay Poss:

for you to answer this question. What is one thing you would like

Lindsay Poss:

to tell your younger self about getting into the gaming industry

Lindsay Poss:

and being successful?

Unknown:

I mean, I guess I'll I'll say related to the Diablo

Unknown:

scam? I really can't agree. Yeah, yeah. The I'm really

Unknown:

grateful for all those experiences in gaming. You know,

Unknown:

at the moment, in the moment, I was pretty bummed out. But

Unknown:

ultimately, all of gaming has taught me more about the future

Unknown:

of the internet than I ever could have imagined. It really

Unknown:

has, for me been a microcosm for communities, our culture forums,

Unknown:

and what I see as being kind of this next really big chapter on

Unknown:

the internet. So I think that's something I'm really grateful

Unknown:

for all the positive and negative experiences. Yeah,

Unknown:

that's such a good point. I think similarly to is trusting

Unknown:

that what you believe is good, particularly from like a

Unknown:

mechanic's point of view, going into the future is going to be

Unknown:

recognized by the communities of the internet. Like, if you have

Unknown:

a great game that you think is really fun, and your team and

Unknown:

your friends really believe it's great as well, the world's gonna

Unknown:

recognize it. And I think that's something that's really exciting

Unknown:

about nowadays, where it's not going to be so much of you

Unknown:

having to convince VCs or going to a publisher and being like,

Unknown:

Hey guys, make sure you like our game like this is this is gonna

Unknown:

be the next Call of Duty right like it's it's it's a different

Unknown:

place where you can actually be recognized for the design work

Unknown:

you're doing it doesn't need to be always pretty, but it can

Unknown:

still be a really excellent game and and that's something I just

Unknown:

think people should really know and, and understanding in the

Unknown:

industry.

Lindsay Poss:

This has been such a great episode. When I was

Lindsay Poss:

preparing for this I kept thinking about have you all seen

Lindsay Poss:

little rascals that movie from our childhood? He Oh, yeah. The

Lindsay Poss:

end portion the he man was and haters club now accepts women. I

Lindsay Poss:

kept thinking about that when I was writing that and having you

Lindsay Poss:

on as the the first male guest. One of the things that we talked

Lindsay Poss:

about in our little, our chat the other day was that there's

Lindsay Poss:

been a lot of women who have been in male dominated spaces.

Lindsay Poss:

And that's been a really difficult experience. And I just

Lindsay Poss:

appreciate that you have come into this space, which

Lindsay Poss:

presumably is female dominated, and shared what you're working

Lindsay Poss:

on. And I think that I really think that things that you're

Lindsay Poss:

doing are extremely unique, and hopefully have an impact on some

Lindsay Poss:

of the other issues that some of the other guests have brought

Lindsay Poss:

up. So thank you for doing that. Really appreciate it. And thank

Lindsay Poss:

you for your time. Where can people find or follow you if you

Lindsay Poss:

want to be found or followed?

Unknown:

I guess if since our game is still a little bit in

Unknown:

stealth mode and hasn't fully been announced. Maybe a decent

Unknown:

place is to you can follow myself on on Twitter. I'm at

Unknown:

Maxwell wink. And any relevant announcements to our game will

Unknown:

also be retweeted there.

Unknown:

Perfect. Yeah. And it's such an honor to be here. I mean, it's

Unknown:

really cool. Being your initial males on the podcast, I think

Unknown:

it's been a really blast talking about this stuff.

Lindsay Poss:

Perfect. Well, thank you guys so much for all

Lindsay Poss:

of our listeners. Leave five star ratings and reviews you

Lindsay Poss:

know the deal. Check out other holodeck media podcasts,

Lindsay Poss:

including men of business for all the metaverse finance

Lindsay Poss:

stories you could ever want. Business of esports for

Lindsay Poss:

interviews with industry leaders. I'm on Twitter,

Lindsay Poss:

Instagram and LinkedIn and Lindsey path and you can catch

Lindsay Poss:

me once a night on the business of esports live after show. You

Lindsay Poss:

can catch this podcast in your feed every Tuesday, sometimes

Lindsay Poss:

Wednesday depending how the week goes. We will see you all next

Lindsay Poss:

week.

Unknown:

Thanks for joining us here on meta woman. Make sure to

Unknown:

subscribe to this podcast everywhere you get your

Unknown:

podcasts, leave a five star review and tell your friends

Unknown:

family and colleagues all about us. Also, make sure to follow

Unknown:

meta TV on all socials to get more of the best Metaverse

Unknown:

content anywhere. Tune in every week for another episode of

Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode

Listen for free

Show artwork for META Woman

About the Podcast

META Woman
Weekly metaverse content - for women, by women
Meta Woman will focus on addressing the issues, opportunities, and challenges facing women in the development of the Metaverse. Top female executives and business people operating within the gaming and crypto industries bring a wide range of perspectives through regular guest appearances.