17. One Big Rollercoaster Ride
It's time to talk about the real world! Joining me this week is Paige Rabatin, Associate at Kohrman Jackson & Krantz LLP and COO of CLESports. Paige not only represents clients in esports through her law firm, but works on real estate development projects to build esports facilities. With different projects in Ohio and Florida, Paige stays busy! We talk about how to build the right spaces with community support, the longevity of real estate projects in esports, Cedar Point rollercoasters and Texas Roadhouse, and esports betting laws.
Episode Resources:
Transcript
Welcome to the meta woman podcast we address the issues, opportunities and challenges
Unknown:facing women in the development of the metaverse the biggest revolution since the internet itself.
Unknown:Every week we bring you conversations with top female talent and business executives operating in
Unknown:the gaming and crypto industries. Here's your host Lindsey, the boss poss the metal woman podcast
Unknown:starts now.
Lindsay Poss:Hello, and welcome to the men of woman podcast part of the holiday media Podcast
Lindsay Poss:Network. I'm your host, Lindsay the boss pass from struggle to success. We're covering it all. To our
Lindsay Poss:returning listeners. Thank you so much for supporting the show. And for our new listeners.
Lindsay Poss:Welcome. I hope you enjoy. This week's guest is the wonderful page or batten which I always do
Lindsay Poss:this. That is the correct pronunciation of your last name right page.
Unknown:Okay, yes, you're correct. Very hard. You got Oh, good.
Lindsay Poss:Paige is an associate at corpsman Jackson and Krantz, just a law practice page,
Lindsay Poss:welcome to the show, just start I would love for you to give the audience a little bit of
Lindsay Poss:background on yourself and what you do and why you're in the middle of I guess, worse, thank
Unknown:you so much for having me. I'm excited. Um, so like you said, I'm an attorney. I've been
Unknown:practicing in Cleveland for a little over four years now. And that's how long kind of the
Unknown:entirety of it I've been in kind of the esports and tech and innovation fields. So I was lucky
Unknown:enough that the partner I primarily work with that heads, our esports and gaming practice group. He's
Unknown:been in it for around 10 years. And so he kind of brought me under his wing from the very beginning.
Unknown:And I just enjoyed it took off. And we've been ranging from representing individual players teams
Unknown:doing contract negotiations, representing just kind of companies in general that are in the
Unknown:industry or real estate projects that are related. And actually from there, one of the other reasons
Unknown:why he won is because of those real estate projects, the partner and I started our own
Unknown:separate business called police sports, because we had a lot of questions of people saying, can you
Unknown:just consult with me? I don't, I don't need you to do my attorney right now. But can you tell me
Unknown:what's going on. So we've been doing that for about a year and a half now as well, which is
Unknown:great.
Lindsay Poss:Yeah, I'm really excited actually, to jump into some of these real estate projects. I
Lindsay Poss:as someone who hosts a podcast kind of on the metaverse and future tech and stuff, I actually
Lindsay Poss:don't get a lot of people talking about how real estate fits into that. And you have a lot of
Lindsay Poss:really interesting developing projects that you've worked on. So I would love to hear from you about
Lindsay Poss:all these development projects. I know you have one in Elyria, Ohio, one in Cedar Point and a big
Lindsay Poss:facility that you've been partnering with slash consulting on slash working on down in Miami,
Lindsay Poss:Florida. And I would love for you to talk about these three projects separately together, however
Lindsay Poss:you'd like. But tell me who you're trying to reach how these facilities help reach that audience, and
Lindsay Poss:kind of why you wanted to be involved in the real estate side of this business. Of course, I
Unknown:will start with the Elyria Ohio project. And for those that don't know, it's not quite but
Unknown:kind of a suburb of Cleveland, about 30 minutes east or west of downtown. And so it's a nice
Unknown:community based area. And so that project is going to be called forge for 17. And it's super
Unknown:exciting, because it's actually stemming from a renovation of the historical building. And so, so
Unknown:long with incorporating, obviously, the tech, the gaming broadcasts, everything like that, we are
Unknown:keeping the historical aspects. And actually the building, one side of it is sticking to the 1920s.
Unknown:Because that was kind of when it was renovated. And then the other side, the other half of the
Unknown:building is actually transforming to go into kind of like the mid mod 1950s 60s era to stick with
Unknown:the historical elements, you kind of see it transformed throughout. So that's really exciting.
Unknown:And I think that project is one I would call it the most like community based because a lot of
Unknown:interaction the owner of the project, actually he's originally from that city, he loves it and
Unknown:kind of wants to leave his mark do very positive things on how this full renovation and there's
Unknown:going to be around I think 175 seat arena in there. So hold kind of like some smaller community
Unknown:based events, have a gaming have all kind of broadcast recording areas, things like that food
Unknown:and beverage components. And so the whole focus on that is not only having the entertainment version
Unknown:of gaming, but also have the separate education and workforce development side that we can bring
Unknown:in during the game kind of like mid week, mid day law that a lot of these facilities, I think don't
Unknown:have a lot of customers. At that point. We can kind of bring in the community and the facility
Unknown:around it to be involved or have different things that can take part in it. And then so I guess now
Unknown:move on to the Cedar Point project, which tell me Yeah, it's exciting. It's huge. It's, you know,
Unknown:you're getting in the like 60,000 plus square foot range, and it's attached to what's currently Your
Unknown:points sports complex. And right next to that is also suitable, right like sports for Spark. So you
Unknown:have the indoor and outside outdoor sports facilities and our building is actually going to
Unknown:connect and be attached to the indoor sports facility. So you already have that crossover of
Unknown:people who are there for the tournament tournament's different events like that, that have
Unknown:downtime, that obviously now will have the ability to come over and game and be a part of that. And
Unknown:one of the most exciting parts as well as it's around three miles from Cedar Point Amusement
Unknown:Park, which is in Sandusky, Ohio for anyone who doesn't know. And so it has millions of visitors a
Unknown:year. And so Cedar Point is so great because it's more of the focused on, you can have larger events
Unknown:with a 1500 seat arena, you have the people who are there that want the entertainment want the
Unknown:vacation wants something that they're already visiting for it's outside of their their norm. And
Unknown:so that's an exciting part of kind of what we're doing there without one.
Lindsay Poss:just interject I believe Cedar Point has the largest selection of rollercoasters in the
Lindsay Poss:US if I'm not mistaken,
Unknown:because the capital of the world.
Lindsay Poss:Yeah, I was going to say I wasn't sure if I could jump to the international side.
Lindsay Poss:But yeah, it's huge. It's actually there. Last time I was there was 2017 for the solar eclipse,
Lindsay Poss:that is very memorable Cedar Point. Also, when he goes in adult after several concussions, it's not
Lindsay Poss:nearly as fun. So the center might be pricey these days.
Unknown:Exactly. And that's kind of the other cool thing about this too, because you have
Unknown:families visiting or people visiting of like you're saying not everyone wants to ride that Top
Unknown:Thrill Dragster or something like that. Or sometimes people maybe want to be an air
Unknown:conditioning in the 90 degrees summer weather like that, where they have that second option now, but
Unknown:I agree I was just there this summer, actually my part of my bachelorette party, a group of art, my
Unknown:friends, and I went there. So I was like, I want to ride roller coasters, and I want to ride real
Unknown:adult roller coasters. And I was like, and I live 45 minutes from this place. So let's go.
Lindsay Poss:That's so fun. Actually, one of the highlights of bad day was going to Texas Roadhouse
Lindsay Poss:afterwards, because you go and it was July it was 90 degrees. It was hot. I think all I ate all day
Lindsay Poss:was fried Oreos and some water and just absolutely pounded some Texas Roadhouse after Cedar Point, I
Lindsay Poss:want to bring it back to these boards and gaming and, you know, real estate part of this definitely
Lindsay Poss:a destination place for a lot of people, particularly in middle America, I think. And I
Lindsay Poss:definitely think that, particularly in the summers that having an air conditioned option, also just
Lindsay Poss:bringing in gaming to amusement parks in general is, is really fun. And kind of, I think it's very
Lindsay Poss:future thinking to me.
Unknown:Exactly, it shows that so cedar Fair's the parent company, because they have multiple
Unknown:parks, in addition to see your point, it shows you right, how forward thinking they are and the fact
Unknown:that they want to stay up to date on the forms of entertainment that people want and are seeking. So
Unknown:I think it's really exciting to pair those together and the level of events that could be had
Unknown:back and forth.
Lindsay Poss:Yes. And then tell me about this project in Miami because this is this is a big
Lindsay Poss:boy. Yeah,
Unknown:that's the the nice one that this winter, I've gotten to travel down to be like, oh, I need
Unknown:to go down to Miami for something now like what a shame. It's 90 degrees. So I just took a sip of
Unknown:water there. But I'm Miami, it's part of what's going to be called destination sport Miami, which
Unknown:is going to be an 800,000 square foot sports complex. And when I first heard those numbers, I
Unknown:could not even picture or fathom how big that building is. I know I probably seen buildings been
Unknown:around that big but just like thinking about it being constructed and seeing the planning that's
Unknown:going on is crazy. But it's going to be like I said it has multiple like football arenas, Olympic
Unknown:sized swimming pools, it has baseball, every soccer every sport you could possibly think of and
Unknown:there are actually professionals who are taking over coaching or being in charge of the sports
Unknown:programs within the facility like we have Randy Moss, NFL Hall of Famer is heading the football
Unknown:program there. Jill Ellis, women's national soccer team coach from a few years back at a soccer
Unknown:program. So it's nice because you have the elite, and you have the people who are wanting to come in
Unknown:and learn and practice and so we're dropping around a 30,000 square foot esports facility in
Unknown:the middle of this building. That can be both kind of like a training and Academy, things like that
Unknown:and be more competition based and focused. And so it's nice how we're going to pare that in and kind
Unknown:of have the full event spectrum of your child wants to come and do a weekend football camp with
Unknown:Randy and everyone there and learn everything well guess what, they're going to have downtime or
Unknown:they're going to want to do other things and esports can be come in and fill that role
Lindsay Poss:for you or you have other children to also take another team who are not as
Lindsay Poss:interested in athletics. I wanted to ask about the relationship you built there because I still feel
Lindsay Poss:as if it's sort of rare for community based projects. and developments, particularly when they
Lindsay Poss:center around sports to include an esports component. So was that something that you went out
Lindsay Poss:and proposed? Or were the people who are building destination sport actually, sort of actively
Lindsay Poss:thinking about, you know, what kids want what they're doing? How did that relationship come
Lindsay Poss:about?
Unknown:I would say was probably a good healthy mix. They knew that they wanted something to set
Unknown:themselves apart, when we've talked to the ownership group, people that are involved and
Unknown:saying, we want that hook, we want something special. And what can you do to be to be different
Unknown:and not have just the standard? Okay, cool. Here's another field over here, I've seen that before or
Unknown:awesome, some new workout equipment, that's great. So we were able to fill that role and talk to them
Unknown:about gear, something that you're going to have that that cross section of the community in
Unknown:general, who they will enjoy working out, they'll enjoy being there for camps, they enjoy sports.
Unknown:And guess what a lot of people are gamers that people don't realize, I obviously everyone
Unknown:listening here, I have to assume realizes that. But a lot of people in general, I think don't get
Unknown:it and still do the cliche picture someone in their basement playing type thing. And so talking
Unknown:to them, and it was nice, because it's a group of people who are very forward thinking and want to
Unknown:give the community the best options possible. And so they were very onboard from the beginning with
Unknown:us.
Lindsay Poss:How are you working to actually monetize these spaces, and I asked that, because
Lindsay Poss:we have seen more recently, a big, big play in opening and creating these types of spaces, there
Lindsay Poss:hasn't really been a dominant strategy for making them last. And in fact, I feel as if there's been
Lindsay Poss:several places that have maybe not had a lot of success in lasting and keep staying profitable.
Lindsay Poss:And doing all of that. So I guess I'm wondering, also more so about are you? Are you looking for
Lindsay Poss:community based investment? Are you working on some type of revenue model? Like how are you
Lindsay Poss:making this a sustainable play real estate's tough, right, yeah. I'm just curious at how you're
Lindsay Poss:making this a sustainable model over the long term. No,
Unknown:I agree. That's a great point. And kind of one of the key factors when we're talking to
Unknown:potential investors or owners or things like that, because you don't really have that set model yet.
Unknown:A bigger, larger facility or somewhere that's solely dedicated, that we can say, look at the
Unknown:success they had there, it's skyrocketing, they're having a great time. Like, we have to be able to
Unknown:sell the new model and the plan itself. And not just, we're going to build this, here's what it's
Unknown:going to offer. But let's assist with the programming and how we're going to diversify that
Unknown:as a whole, as kind of a cool esports comes in and how we're helping to consult and build full
Unknown:operating plans and link those to a pro forma to see, here's how big we should make the hub because
Unknown:here's how much we think you can make hourly. And it's more worth it to have the hub and to have
Unknown:more VR, things like that, where you kind of look at a whole community and see what we think they're
Unknown:going to be involved in what they're going to want to do. And with that, we kind of realize that
Unknown:flexibility is key in this because you're right, you have these facilities that have been built,
Unknown:where it's cool, you can fit a 20,000 person event, how often are you hosting those? Or what
Unknown:are you doing with that space, when you're not hosting those. And so with that we have, like I'm
Unknown:saying before, we have the STEM education, the types of events that are happening during the mid
Unknown:day that like you can have schools can then you can have education with the broad level broadcast
Unknown:equipment, recording equipment, things like that. There's also the ability for people to come in and
Unknown:use the studio space. And kind of keep that tie in as well. Food and Beverage is a huge thing. You
Unknown:don't want to have something where someone's there for two hours and says, Well, I'm hungry like I'm
Unknown:done here. Looking.
Lindsay Poss:I'd be so grumpy when he remembers the Texas Roadhouse.
Unknown:Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's the highlight for some people. And I would be one of them too.
Unknown:So don't feel. Exactly. But yeah, so you want that you want to have that flexibility. You want to
Unknown:have the programming done. I mean, even brings into the amount of tech and innovation that you
Unknown:can cross over with have you now have programs that you can put on your computer that they can be
Unknown:mining crypto at certain at during the day, whenever they're not in use, things like that of
Unknown:it's about having that never seen one use out of the space, I guess is the way that I would
Unknown:summarize it. And we've done it, at least in my opinion, I think a pretty good job of that and
Unknown:having it narrowed down to what we want to do in these spaces.
Lindsay Poss:So when you're making these decisions in these determinations, are you working
Lindsay Poss:with local governments? Are you working with local schools? Like how are you getting out into the
Lindsay Poss:community to say, hey, this one doesn't need VR, it should have more, I don't know, console
Lindsay Poss:stations or whatever it may be. I know you mentioned that that's kind of part of the process,
Lindsay Poss:but how are you actually learning on the ground? What that particular community is looking for?
Unknown:For Yeah, we It truly is a kind of a boots on the ground like going and physically
Unknown:talking to people or I guess over zoom. That's the
Lindsay Poss:boots on the ground these days anyway.
Unknown:Exactly. We've been lucky enough with a stream aleria specifically, like we've had
Unknown:meetings with the mayor with the local town council. We have local schools ranging from
Unknown:college level clear down to elementary, junior high that are saying this facilities coming in?
Unknown:What how can we cross over? How can we use it? How do we want to make sure it's not just your
Unknown:school's computer lab, it's something that will be innovation worth it, innovation, innovative and
Unknown:worth it for everyone in that area. And so letting people know that we actually do take their
Unknown:concerns or their goals in into our thought process, I think has been very helpful, because
Unknown:then they see the benefit for the community itself. Speaking of which we have IT workforce
Unknown:development or job training during the days you're also seeing, not only are we now creating jobs in
Unknown:your community, but we have the ability to help train people for other jobs in general. And a lot
Unknown:of areas don't have a dedicated space like that. That is with the companies and partners we've
Unknown:started working with, they have full VR and AR capabilities for workforce training. And they now
Unknown:are saying, well, can we come in and use your your base that you're going to have the hubs that you
Unknown:have for this because that can cut our training time in half if we can have people be almost fully
Unknown:immersed?
Lindsay Poss:Very cool. What kind of feedback have you been getting so far from from communities
Lindsay Poss:and from folks that are actually using centers?
Unknown:We've had very positive feedback, which has been great, because like you said, this is
Unknown:kind of the the cutting edge for a lot of areas. And I will say that there's a healthy dose of
Unknown:skepticism at times of the people that sit there and go, What are esports? I'm sorry, what?
Unknown:Exactly. They're like, Oh, I didn't know that you could do this, or I tell them event stories we're
Unknown:talking to sometimes people in my own firm stuff like that, where I'm saying, Oh, I just helped to
Unknown:negotiate this contract for a 15 year old who's a professional player, and going to be out kicking
Unknown:butt and they're just like, I'm sorry, you can make money. And What job do you think I'm doing?
Unknown:There's no money or
Lindsay Poss:professional esports branch at this firm just for fun?
Unknown:Yeah, exactly. So the fact that we focus on esports. And then obviously, like, gaming in
Unknown:general. So there's, it's not just for the pros, like it's not for that few percent of people who
Unknown:make it huge, like this is going to be welcoming to the community in general for any level of
Unknown:gaming. And so there's been a lot of excitement about that of, hey, this view may have tech or
Unknown:resources that we would never get or have in our own home that now we can try out and come and
Unknown:utilize.
Lindsay Poss:Yeah, we'd love to dig a little deeper on that. Because one of the one of the
Lindsay Poss:things that we talk about a lot on this podcast is bringing in people who aren't typically served by
Lindsay Poss:the gaming industry, and you know, you have a play where you're building community centers that are
Lindsay Poss:supposed to reach everyone within the community. Are you finding that you have to do anything extra
Lindsay Poss:to maybe get particularly maybe young women or other underrepresented minorities interested in
Lindsay Poss:the space? Or is this more so a build it and everyone will come kind of project so far? I guess
Lindsay Poss:it gets a depends on which project but what how are you thinking about being as inclusive as
Lindsay Poss:possible or reaching the people who may not have been reached previously, I guess.
Unknown:Exactly. That's, I would love to rely on if you build it, they will come wouldn't be my
Unknown:dreams, I
Lindsay Poss:guess I truly wish everyone would come.
Unknown:Exactly. And there are certain spaces you're right, it varies like Cedar Point, you have
Unknown:plopped it down in the middle of the great strategic area where there is keep there people
Unknown:coming and going there people that want to come and have entertainment in that specific space. And
Unknown:so it's a little bit easier there. Obviously, we still have the full range of what we want to what
Unknown:programming we want to have. But it's it's a little bit more built in. But then you have areas
Unknown:like Illyria like it's more of a suburb and so we want the community involved and that's how we're
Unknown:seeing like more of the boots on the ground approach. We're going and talking to these schools
Unknown:and educators and so kids and students are now growing up with this being a part of their life in
Unknown:general so it doesn't seem abnormal. It doesn't seem like something they just consider wanting to
Unknown:try once or twice or that like is scary to them because they're not good at gaming yet. We have
Unknown:that invite we have that programming that people who either aren't involved or are a little bit
Unknown:hesitant can come and try it out. And then mixed with that. You're right there are several
Unknown:communities in long lines that seem underrepresented in gaming and I think having
Unknown:events and tournaments and things like that, that are even tailored to specific groups of everyone's
Unknown:welcome. But this is tailored towards either the women in gaming or things like that, and just kind
Unknown:of show the representation and appreciation, because, like, a few people would be mind blown
Unknown:when they hear that 45% of gamers and 2021 more women, and you sit there and people are so what?
Unknown:We don't do this. I've had, I've had literally someone come up and ask me before, so what games
Unknown:do women play? That'd be like
Lindsay Poss:that's it, you get a lot of funny questions, you know, oh, kids can make money on
Lindsay Poss:esports. Women? That's, I mean, that is a little, I guess. funny to me. But I will say I think I
Lindsay Poss:think we've come a long way in the year 2022, there's a long way to still go. So if you are
Lindsay Poss:someone who is just answering these questions, please do not feel bad. Just know that there are
Lindsay Poss:people out there who are working in this industry and are excited to bring into it.
Unknown:Exactly. And that it's it's moving in there's it's big. And there's something there.
Unknown:You're right. It's the if you didn't know it, it's no shame in it. But obviously, now you do and you
Unknown:have a reason to get involved and try it out. Because obviously a large amount of people find it
Unknown:really interesting.
Lindsay Poss:Me. So you mentioned pro tournaments and kind of events and using these spaces for Max,
Lindsay Poss:I know that you've already mentioned being highly flexible in the approach that you take to these
Lindsay Poss:spaces. But do you have a I don't want to call it a magic formula, but a kind of a baseline for how
Lindsay Poss:you decide how many, you know, strictly events you kind of hold versus having free flowing open play
Lindsay Poss:areas. How you balance that? I mean, this is kind of a question for all the folks out there who are
Lindsay Poss:looking to maybe open a space or thinking about a space in their community? How much do you have to
Lindsay Poss:plan versus how much is it? You know, here's an open land center, have your kid come by and play?
Lindsay Poss:And how do you think about that balance?
Unknown:Yeah, we definitely have to work that out. And so kind of what I was talking before
Unknown:about the the pro forma have we dig into the community itself, because, like similar here, if
Unknown:you are building in a city that already has several concert venues that can fit 500 to 2000
Unknown:people, maybe we don't need a huge our facility doesn't need to focus on that and have these huge
Unknown:events. Because in addition to obviously esports tournaments, or esports, for festivals and things
Unknown:like that, you have to think these spaces are also available for concerts, live podcast, things like
Unknown:that, that we can always bring in. And so we're looking at kind of what the community is drawn to
Unknown:what is already being given the community and kind of what's more, so needed. So that helps us to
Unknown:build this out and decide, okay, well, we can make this area a little bit bigger. And this one a
Unknown:little bit smaller. Let's shift around here. I
Lindsay Poss:think that's actually really smart. Because I do think that with the analogous nature
Lindsay Poss:of esports. In pro sports, I think that there's a tendency to everything has to look like pro
Lindsay Poss:sports. And so we have to have events and competitions and things like that to get the
Lindsay Poss:community interested in involved. But I would, I would actually think that a lot more open play
Lindsay Poss:would be kind of the more attractive thing, because you can even like you said, you can hold
Lindsay Poss:events in a variety of venues, but we can't do is go after school and play something in a variety of
Lindsay Poss:places or in those larger arenas.
Unknown:Exactly. I would agree. I think a lot of it is based upon the people that you write want to
Unknown:come in and use the Gaming Hub or a VR bay or have their own, they want it to be their entertainment
Unknown:and entertainment isn't always I'm watching someone else who's really good at this. That's
Unknown:exciting. And it's a big part of it. But a lot of people want to get better, they want to use the
Unknown:most up to date tech that maybe they don't have in their house. They want to see their scores
Unknown:projected to see oh, you're the top person that has been here today or the top one of our users
Unknown:this year, things like that, that they can themselves feel a part of. And I mean, it's having
Unknown:the beer league not watching the net that you write the professional sport every single time.
Lindsay Poss:Yeah, that's a really fun way of thinking about it. As we talk more about kind of
Lindsay Poss:future tech and work gaming's going and you know, we've had this pandemic this whole year, we've all
Lindsay Poss:been inside so much. How are you thinking about how real estate is going to play in to gaming and
Lindsay Poss:into the the idea of the metaverse and now we have all these these fun terms surrounding that and
Lindsay Poss:building virtual worlds and all of that. How are you thinking about real estate and kind of
Lindsay Poss:physical world presence? And how that plays into what we're gonna see in the next five to 10 years
Lindsay Poss:in the development of tech.
Unknown:Yeah, I think it's a huge thing to consider and kind of figure out where you lie in
Unknown:that because you're right, you bring up the metaverse, which is kind of what they're trying to
Unknown:bridge the gap between real life and virtual Life and what's gonna happen there? What's the
Unknown:interplay? And not only will we have the the tech for you to take part in that if you want but you
Unknown:kind of can be immersed in people who are like minded and like similar things that you or it can
Unknown:have good discussions or interactions with by being here and being in a place of people like
Unknown:that want to take part in gaming or esports? Or actually care to learn what the metaverse is,
Unknown:which I've tried really hard. And I think I know, but at the same time, I feel like it's constantly
Unknown:changing.
Lindsay Poss:It's okay. I mean, here's the meta woman podcast and we talk about the metaverse
Lindsay Poss:every week on here and every week, I think, I don't know if I get it more or less. I just have
Lindsay Poss:new questions. Right, which I think that part of the thing that I actually like about doing this,
Lindsay Poss:and this is the broad blanket message, but I think it's important to have those questions and to have
Lindsay Poss:the discussions about it, because so many people out there talking about it as if they're an
Lindsay Poss:authority in there. There isn't an expert in the metaverse yet. So it's like, well, what, what do
Lindsay Poss:we want. And I actually think that the idea of kind of social club built around gaming and tech
Lindsay Poss:is is a really smart way of having real world experiences that still take into consideration
Lindsay Poss:what's going to happen in virtual worlds. Exactly. And I think people need to look at it just like
Lindsay Poss:any other things that people do in their life and
Unknown:normal habit, a routine of, I can make dinner at home, but I want to go out with my
Unknown:friends and get a good meal. So I feel like this is can be very analogous to them.
Lindsay Poss:That's a very fun way of putting it. You don't want to just put on your Oculus, you
Lindsay Poss:want to go hang out with a bunch of other people.
Unknown:The only thing that's missing when I go to this place is my dogs are there.
Lindsay Poss:A very good point.
Unknown:Maybe they could be maybe that's another way I bring in dog lovers who
Lindsay Poss:maybe was just put Oculus is on dogs and see what
Unknown:they want to go after.
Lindsay Poss:Right? Like there is actually a story I'm terribly long ago about Oculus is on
Lindsay Poss:cows. I don't know if you saw that. It was something about keeping them calmer, I believe,
Unknown:oh, did they produce more milk? That's a super happy field or something like that. Yep,
Unknown:that's exactly hills are alive with the sound of music. And so they were producing more. Yeah,
Lindsay Poss:maybe that's the future we can maybe that's
Unknown:how I lower my heart rate. When I'm like stressed out from work. I put it on like ocean
Unknown:breezes, right. And
Lindsay Poss:I think that's that's probably a real thing that's right around the corner. want to
Lindsay Poss:shift gears a bit here. So one of the other initiatives I've seen you discuss are changes in
Lindsay Poss:sports betting laws, and specifically legalizing sports betting licenses in Ohio. We've seen
Lindsay Poss:movement and interest in those laws for esports organizations. But what excites you about having
Lindsay Poss:legal sports betting? And how does it fit into the rest of what you're doing in the gaming industry?
Unknown:Yeah, I think sports betting is exciting, because so here in Ohio, for example, just earlier
Unknown:this year, with the bill was passed to allow sports betting and there was, I think, a year's
Unknown:worth of discussion leading up to it. And I think there's still some tweaks that are happening, but
Unknown:it's, it's there, it's going to go into effect, hopefully this year. And with that, you have you
Unknown:open up one a new form of entertainment. And I think not saying it, this is the only way but I
Unknown:think it can also legitimize esports because the Ohio bill specifically, I've done a lot of
Unknown:reading, and it's boring to get through. But I came to one section where I was like, You have
Unknown:talked about esports. You've talked about betting on gaming. And essentially, I mean, it's
Unknown:understandable, you don't want to bet when people under the age of 18 are playing or things like
Unknown:that. Or there's the same question that there is with every single sport have, does this lead to
Unknown:cheating, or people throwing or like things like that, that I understand are legitimate questions.
Unknown:But also, it can happen in the basketball game that's going on right now, too. So I think it
Unknown:brings a new way for someone to sit here and be like, Oh, this is something real that I want to
Unknown:watch that I want to follow. And that I think I can guess or figure out the outcome or want to be
Unknown:kind of have my level of why it matters to me.
Lindsay Poss:Let me ask you kind of an opinion question on that. Because I do think that we wind
Lindsay Poss:up comparing esports and traditional sports a lot. I think that there's a lot of for better or for
Lindsay Poss:worse about that. But do you think that incorporating sports betting into maybe
Lindsay Poss:professional play in esports? is I mean, I guess I sort of my opinion on that as it is I sort of see
Lindsay Poss:it almost as a limiting factor. In terms of I think it's almost too analogous to pro sports. I
Lindsay Poss:think that if you wanted to do sports betting can do sports betting and of course that's part of
Lindsay Poss:esports betting. But is there other ways you see kind of betting happening in the gaming industry
Lindsay Poss:that might not be directly analogous to how it works in sports matches?
Unknown:Yeah, I think I I've seen and I've had conversations with I think even in general, to get
Unknown:away from sports. I mean, you Have the apps everyone's doing it anyway, let's be honest, even
Unknown:before it was legal in Ohio people were finding ways to do it. I know my fiance under the bus on
Unknown:ways to do it. But you already have the apps you have the ability for people to come do it. And I
Unknown:think there would be a very large missed opportunities. From conversations I've had of some
Unknown:of the larger casinos or people who are involved in sports betting either DraftKings, MGM, anyone
Unknown:like that, wanting to pair up in a certain way, if you already have people that like gaming, you have
Unknown:people who like taking part, or want like, like the thrill, like seeing that they're earning
Unknown:something. And I think that there's a transition of the casinos and people who are taking part in
Unknown:gambling and stuff like that they just like every other entertainment source wants to make sure that
Unknown:the younger crowd likes their product likes what they're what they have to sell, is interested in
Unknown:taking part. And so I think there's the other aspect of that same quasi sports betting gambling
Unknown:of I'm not saying go start your five year old to start betting and seeing if he can win MGM like
Unknown:hotel points right now confidently. But obviously, there's a good way to tailor it, but to have
Unknown:people who can kind of take part in their own like real world betting of like, Oh, I'm the person
Unknown:doing this, I want to win something like it's not just on professional athletes now. Gotcha.
Lindsay Poss:Do you think that this has me sort of struggled to ask this question, but do you
Lindsay Poss:think that there is any kind of exciting things when it comes to the crossover between betting in
Lindsay Poss:the metaverse, I'm trying to think of maybe a new, like a new way to experience betting? And
Lindsay Poss:obviously, that's hard to do. Because if we could all just create novel experiences, and we will
Lindsay Poss:probably all be millionaires. But how is the ability to act in virtual worlds do you think are
Lindsay Poss:going to affect maybe the types of bets we place? Or, you know, I wonder if they won't all be
Lindsay Poss:strictly competition based? I wonder? I don't know. Just what do you think about how the
Lindsay Poss:intersection between esports betting in VR?
Unknown:Yeah, I think that there's going to be you're at a big intersection of we don't have to
Unknown:look at it in the same lens that it's been viewed for the past 10 plus years, however long people
Unknown:have been betting nothing's guaranteed longer than that. Let's be
Lindsay Poss:probably the dawn of time. Yeah, exactly.
Unknown:Someone said, yeah. But you can't do this. Oh, my beer was invented right after. But I
Unknown:agree, I think there's going to be new ways and new forms of bringing it in and collaborating in
Unknown:there. And I think the aspect of, I mean, like I said, there's sports betting apps, there's, you're
Unknown:able to do it on your phone. Those are great. They bring it directly to you. However, you're right,
Unknown:now that you're in the metaverse, you're in more virtual, or whatever it is, you feel more
Unknown:engrossed in a part of it. And you can be in meta of Las Vegas, as opposed to real Las Vegas, and it
Unknown:feels closer to the real thing. So I don't doubt if they're right, or all kinds of different
Unknown:aspects that we're gonna see pop up that people can take part of part in, and they realize like,
Unknown:oh, this means more feels better because of the technology. I'm consuming it through.
Lindsay Poss:me ask another opinion question. Do you think that the kind of heavy and somewhat
Lindsay Poss:direct link between esports and between betting kind of Soliz the industry at all, I've seen a lot
Lindsay Poss:of pushback from both regulators and from there's a lot of like, concerned parents groups and things
Lindsay Poss:of that nature, that are worried about that link?
Unknown:No, I can completely understand. I mean, it's one of those things if you're bringing advice
Unknown:into what people like to think of a pure form of entertainment. I guess though, most pure forms of
Unknown:entertainment. People aren't screaming at each other across headsets. Angry. But agree. I mean, I
Unknown:think it has to be the, the aspect now people need can make their own decisions. And I understand
Unknown:parents or groups like that sitting and saying, Well, no, my 14 year old can't be making his own
Unknown:decisions in this but at the same time, I think it it becomes personal to yourself or your unit or
Unknown:whoever you're watching or taking care of. What do we want to allow in what do we think is okay? And
Unknown:it's obviously not my right to make that decision for everyone. And so I think allowing the
Unknown:opportunity and seeing how things go and obviously if there needs to be more laws or tailoring or
Unknown:tightening things down because you're right, things can get solid it can get lines can get
Unknown:blurred. That shouldn't be blurred and things like that. And it's we watch out and we readjust
Unknown:accordingly. And I think that's kind of the way to take your right now because letting in sports
Unknown:betting or any sort of gambling in itself, at least to me, in my opinion, doesn't necessarily
Unknown:mean bad. It doesn't necessarily mean this is a negative. There's a downside. I under Seeing that
Unknown:that possibility exists, but let's kind of see how it goes and learn as the process comes about.
Lindsay Poss:Yeah, I think it's hard with all of these things to figure out how they're going to be
Lindsay Poss:received. But at the end of the day, you're right, if adjustments need to be made, adjustments can be
Lindsay Poss:made. This isn't anything that's set in stone, by any means. How does betting and you know, passage
Lindsay Poss:of Ohio laws and things of that nature? How does that play into your property development strategy?
Lindsay Poss:I'm definitely imagining a bar where people can play each other one v one, even games and wager a
Lindsay Poss:bet, you know, throw $10 on the game of Call of Duty or whatever it is, and go against each other.
Lindsay Poss:Are you thinking about ways of you know, we talked about food beverage a little bit? But are you
Lindsay Poss:thinking about ways of incorporating these kind of additional activities into gaming, I suppose.
Unknown:Yeah, definitely. Especially within the past in Ohio, Ohio, not to bore you. But there's,
Unknown:at this point, three different types of licenses. There's the Big Think of it as casino sportsbook
Unknown:location, license, there's the license that specifically goes to like kiosks that people can
Unknown:come in and place their own bet in certain areas. And then there's like the mobile platform
Unknown:licenses. And it's, especially when you think about the kiosks and how you can kind of have them
Unknown:in their own separate area or be a part of it, like you said, have it in the bar area, have it
Unknown:separated or kind of be able to run things to where it's accessible to those who should be able
Unknown:to access access it. And so we have made sure of, so we started off to design plans and things like
Unknown:that, or several of these facilities before it was passed here. And now you sit and we work closely
Unknown:with actually architects at in Cleveland here. There's a great firm called Osborn engineering.
Unknown:And they have a division called Oh, sports that does specifically sports design. And now esports
Unknown:design quite a bit of it. And we work with them. And we have that moment of things are getting past
Unknown:and like, alright, as I said, When can we get rid of this? I needed to draw, you can do that right
Unknown:now. Right. And so that's, that's been great to talk about and kind of work in and see how other
Unknown:people picture it and where they think that they would want to do it. Because I mean, I remember
Unknown:going out not remember I'm not old, I still go to bars like bars. They have the little like gaming
Unknown:machines on the counter themselves part of the time to be friends, which gathering around big Oh,
Unknown:you want to play this all together? Things like that of people like to have that form of
Unknown:entertainment.
Lindsay Poss:What to end with a discussion on how you got to where you are in your career. I know
Lindsay Poss:that we've obviously mentioned that your lawyer who works in esports. But what made you want to
Lindsay Poss:get involved in esports? Why did you choose this as a form of practice that your law firm? What
Lindsay Poss:kind of what motivated you?
Unknown:Yeah, I guess we can, I can go clear back to say obviously, I grew up gaming. I have an
Unknown:older brother who's three years older, a younger brother, who's five years younger, and the amount
Unknown:of fights that have happened over being able to play on the console that we had in our house at
Unknown:the time, I wouldn't doubt our we had several broken Sega controllers, because that's what I
Unknown:started on growing up. Actually, I found a couple years ago and brought to my house and spend some
Unknown:time playing an old game. Yeah, um, but so so grew up with that had PlayStation I did, you know, the
Unknown:same amount of I mean, not the same amount. My older brother, let's be honest, he kicked my butt
Unknown:and everything. He was way better. He did it much more. And he was.
Lindsay Poss:Yeah, he had a couple years on you. I'm the youngest, so you get it.
Unknown:Exactly. So enjoyed it, or it was just a it was a good pastime. And I won't lie and say as
Unknown:I got older or went to college or law school and didn't really have my own, at where I was living,
Unknown:like I fell out of doing it kind of daily or every day, but I still it was the thing I would enjoy or
Unknown:you have Christmas where the family gets back together and everyone's still like they want to go
Unknown:and start playing. It helps to that. So my fiance, a huge gamer, I'm sitting beside the computer he
Unknown:built right here that's top notch for when we want to bust things out. And so when the opportunity
Unknown:was able to present itself of I knew, I've always been interested in sports, I've liked gaming,
Unknown:things like that. And when I was able to lucky enough to work at the firm that we already were
Unknown:catering to some of those clients and the goal was to continue doing so that I was able to kind of
Unknown:get thrown in and learn quickly of okay, cool. I'm, I'm going to an attorney and I understand
Unknown:that the base and underlying aspects of my job a lot of times they're still I have to be an
Unknown:attorney and I have to read this contract, but it helps a lot when I actually read through them like
Unknown:okay, well I know what this is talking about. I know why we need to put this clause in here or why
Unknown:this should be involved, things like that, that it helps when I like what I'm reading about and kind
Unknown:of like what I'm doing and like who I'm interacting with, because you have these great
Unknown:minds, people who have free spirits and want to have fun, and it's not the old, old boys club of,
Unknown:you have to do something a certain way people are into doing new things and finding new
Unknown:possibilities. And so I've really enjoyed that aspect of my job, and then kind of being able to
Unknown:transition over into more of the consulting and rotating that process between I'm a professional,
Unknown:but also I get, and I like this industry, and I want to help it build and succeed and keep
Unknown:growing.
Lindsay Poss:Very cool. Well, speaking of things that you're building and seeing and growing, what
Lindsay Poss:projects do you have coming up to that you're excited about? Or what things are you working on
Lindsay Poss:that you're just the want to brag about?
Unknown:Yeah. So obviously, like I said, we've got the the three that we discussed earlier with
Unknown:two point we have aleria, we have Miami, and I'm lucky enough that several of those projects, I
Unknown:can't exactly announce where but they are not going to be the only one of their kind, we're
Unknown:going to branch out there's going to be a pretty good cross section across the country. And I think
Unknown:I'm excited because there's a good focus on the Midwest itself. And then my partner my work with
Unknown:we since we have our own separate business, we've also discussed and looked into starting our own
Unknown:and more so focused on entertainment itself, tailoring it to what do we want to have it be
Unknown:almost completely casual and have that be super inviting. And so looking at some different areas
Unknown:there and kind of tailoring how we want to, we want to protect it before we bring it forth. But
Unknown:like I'm excited to be able to work on that and work on our own projects, and then also be helping
Unknown:people who really, really want to be able to break into this area as well.
Lindsay Poss:I think that's a very, very fun way to kind of end this part of the discussion, I want
Lindsay Poss:to summarize really quick before we move into the last segment that I do on every show. So we talked
Lindsay Poss:about how part of your process in developing these kind of community oriented centers is going and
Lindsay Poss:talking to schools and educators as well as governments as well as people really getting boots
Lindsay Poss:on the ground or boots on the Zoom if you want to say that. But talking to people to figure out
Lindsay Poss:what's actually happening in the community, how it can be made better by having a space within the
Lindsay Poss:community talked about how having events and tournaments that are tailored to specific groups,
Lindsay Poss:or everyone might be welcome, but you show appreciation for a specific group can be a good
Lindsay Poss:way to bring in people who might not be traditionally reached quite as much. When it comes
Lindsay Poss:to the metaverse, we talked about how the tech will play a part in Metaverse experiences, and how
Lindsay Poss:bringing people together to bond over that tech is one of the best ways you can kind of incorporate
Lindsay Poss:both real life experience with the metaverse and virtual worlds kind of building a social club or
Lindsay Poss:like bringing together like minded people who want to go about having these experiences talking
Lindsay Poss:learning about future tech together and creating a space for that. We talked about esports betting
Lindsay Poss:quite a bit. It's getting worked in as more legalization for sports betting is coming in.
Lindsay Poss:People want to be able to play games, and even play games within games by betting on those games,
Lindsay Poss:while they're enjoying other forms of entertainment. The last thing that I thought was
Lindsay Poss:really great was you mentioned how gaming is not an old old boys club anymore, I think. I think
Lindsay Poss:that there's still that perception and for somewhat good reason. But as you pointed out,
Lindsay Poss:there's a lot of room for innovation and growth. And there's a lot of room for different voices
Lindsay Poss:within the space and a lot of negative news around that lately. So I think it's good to point out
Lindsay Poss:that there's plenty of dark areas within gaming. There's also several LinkedIn open areas that
Lindsay Poss:people can get into. So for our last little segment here, I like to do this with every guest,
Lindsay Poss:I call it a moment of reflection, it's just a time for you to think back on where you're at in your
Lindsay Poss:career. And I would love to ask you what is one thing you would like to tell your younger self
Lindsay Poss:about getting into the gaming and tech industry and being successful?
Unknown:I think I would tell myself to kind of dive in headfirst. I think this is very much a
Unknown:high risk high reward industry a great area for that. And also I feel like I as well as other
Unknown:people could see something new pop up and say Oh, well that's never gonna take off. Guess what a lot
Unknown:of it is taken off. And so I've definitely come to realize and be like, no even if I don't understand
Unknown:it someone you're definitely smarter than me someone's figured it out. So lean into things
Lindsay Poss:like that. Take the risk jump in. Paige, thank you so much for coming on. Where can
Lindsay Poss:people find and follow you if you would like to have people find and follow you?
Unknown:Of course. So you can obviously look me up if you want to be real professional on
Unknown:LinkedIn. My last name is spelled ra Ba ti in a good way as well would be to reach out to my
Unknown:Twitter which isn't bad that I didn't really remember my own twitter handle it's p in is in
Unknown:McKinsey ours in rabadan and then E sq. Or let's be honest, if you want to have a direct chat right
Unknown:now reach out to me via email at p n r@kjk.com.
Lindsay Poss:Oh, I love that very bold. For all of our listeners out there, be sure to leave those
Lindsay Poss:five star ratings and reviews. Tell a friend about the podcast. You all know the bit. Be sure to
Lindsay Poss:check out other holodeck media podcasts, including meta business for all the metaverse finance
Lindsay Poss:stories you could ever want. Business of esports for interviews with industry leaders. I'm on
Lindsay Poss:Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn at Lindsay poss and you can catch me Wednesday nights on the
Lindsay Poss:business of esports live after show. You can catch this podcast and your feed every Tuesday. We'll
Lindsay Poss:see you next week.
Unknown:Thanks for joining us here on meta woman. Make sure to subscribe to this podcast everywhere
Unknown:you get your podcasts, leave a five star review and tell your friends family and colleagues all
Unknown:about us. Also, make sure to follow metta TV on all socials to get more of the best Metaverse
Unknown:content anywhere. Tune in every week for another episode of meadow woman
