Episode 27

full
Published on:

7th Jun 2022

27. Word: Play

We are continuing our mental health chats! Joining me this week is Eve Crevoshay, the Executive Director of Take This. The mission of Take This, in its own words, is “decrease the stigma, and increase the support for, mental health in the game enthusiast community and inside the game industry.” Our discussion is wide ranging, from why building a healthy community is so important to why being a helicopter parent may not be a bad thing.

Episode Resources:

https://www.takethis.org/

https://www.healthygamer.gg/blog/video-games-and-mental-health-explained

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2021/10/05/heres-how-instagram-harms-young-women-according-to-research/?sh=b0058fb255ae

https://scholarworks.bgsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1039&context=jade

https://gameshotline.org/

Transcript
Unknown:

Welcome to the meadow woman podcast we address the

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issues, opportunities and challenges facing women in the

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development of the metaverse the biggest revolution since the

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internet itself. Every week we bring you conversations with top

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female talent and business executives operating in the

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gaming and crypto industries. Here's your host Lindsey, the

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boss parts. The metal woman podcast starts now.

Lindsay Poss:

Hello, and welcome to the men and women podcast

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part of the holodeck media Podcast Network. I'm your host

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Lindsey, the boss poss from struggle to success recovering

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and all taller returning listeners, thank you so much for

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supporting the show. I love getting your messages. I love

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hearing your feedback, it truly warms my heart. For all the new

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listeners welcome, I hope you enjoy and feel free to drop me a

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line in time. I'm really excited to introduce today's guests for

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several reasons. One of them being that I'm actually not

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feeling my greatest, I think my voice reflects that. And I think

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that this person is just going to be a really like wonderful

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person to talk to you when I'm not feeling thing that she does

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for a lot of people. And it's really wonderful. She is someone

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who I've met recommendations from different people at

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different organizations that I just have to meet. Know, when

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different people who don't even know each other are recommending

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the same person to do that. They have to be doing some truly

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wonderful work. So with that being said, I'm happy and

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excited to introduce Eve crawfish Shea, the executive

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director of take this, if I hope I said your last name correctly,

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please started. Asking before again, I'm trying to get better

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about that. But I keep forgetting. So Eve is the

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executive director of take this mission up take this, in its own

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words is to quote decrease the stigma and increase the support

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for mental health and the game enthusiast community and inside

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the game industry. So Eve, welcome to the show. I'd love

Lindsay Poss:

for you to introduce yourself and take this and just add a

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couple sentences onto that very

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sure thing. Yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate it. And I'm

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really excited to be here with it. I've been looking forward to

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this conversation. As you said, I'm executive director I've been

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with take this about four years. And the organization itself was

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founded in 2014, so about eight years ago, and and we do a

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variety of things across games and across mental health. We do

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research, advocacy, training and workshops, and resource

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development for people who make and play games and people who

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are streamers and content creators as well. So we cover a

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really broad swath. And our perspective is that we need to

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address some of the underlying challenges that are baked into

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the culture and structure of games and the game industry that

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can contribute to mental health well being and mental health

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distress and challenges. So we talk a lot about what it's like

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to work in the industry, the content and design of games, the

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experience of being in online spaces as players and makers,

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games, and a variety of things related to that. And so, So

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increasingly, our our our work has broadened to include those

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kinds of underlying issues related to mental well being.

Lindsay Poss:

It's really cool that you touch on a lot of

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different aspects within the gaming industry. Because I I

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love research and hopefully people listening know that by

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now. I'm a big data nerd, wanted to start this discussion just by

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offering some conclusions from various studies and literature

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reviews, which I will definitely link in the show notes. These

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are on the link between gaming and mental health. I found Yes,

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a little bit more between people who play games. I think a lot

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about what the industry does to mental health

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too, but

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yeah, which we absolutely can I never shy away

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from it. But these the certain kind of statistics and stuff I

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was trying to bring sort of a different view. So a one

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quotation I found is every one conclusion I found from a

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particular paper is quote, excessive video gaming is found

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to be associated with positive emotions and social

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relationships while playing. However, problematic and

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excessive video gaming is also associated with maladaptive

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coping strategies, negative emotions and attitudes, low self

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esteem, loneliness, and poor academic performance. And so

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video games have been linked to not shown to cause in any way

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and I want to draw a distinction very rare depression, anxiety

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and other poor mental health outcomes for a myriad of

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reasons. One being that that can be used as a coping mechanism.

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environments within video games have also been linked to low

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self esteem. As you mentioned, there's a lot of representation

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issue there's there's a lot of toxicity in the environment

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issues for streamers, there's a lot of a whole host of content

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moderation issues and chat moderation issues. And I I sort

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of struggled to frame them So because we are obviously people

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who also believe in the positive impact of video games, yeah,

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we'll kind of under the rug. And this is why I liked that

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particular quote that positive that video gaming can add a lot

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to people's lives. But yes, so with that framing, I also wanted

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to bring in a couple of facts from about mental health

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directly from take this as website, an estimated one in two

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Americans will be diagnosed with a mental health condition in

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their lifetime, approximately one in five will be diagnosed

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and given year, the most common types of diagnoses in the US are

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anxiety disorders, of which there are many types, and 50% of

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lifetime cases of mental health conditions begin by age 14 75%.

Lindsay Poss:

So very young population. And now that we've talked about this

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picture, I want to get a lot of your thoughts on what you're

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doing to address some of the issues mental health and video

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games, what you tell parents that are saying these are bad,

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and how that's just not true. But some of the things that you

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do some of the missions that you support? Yeah, just let's let's

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walk through the take. This actually does.

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Yeah, so um, we do, we do a lot of public advocacy, and

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we talk to parents, we talk to media, we talk to the public, we

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talk to the industry itself. But primarily, we are we want what

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we want to do is bring good science to bear on these

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questions and to an accurate and like, normalize. So we want to

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say, in a way that's translatable to people who make

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and play games, like, Hey, it's okay to get help, it's okay to

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need help that the communities, so one of the biggest protected,

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we talked about protective factors and mental health, one

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of the biggest protective factors that helps like, build

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resiliency helps people feel like they're supported, and like

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they're going to be okay. Is community. And what is, you

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know, the experience of playing games online, if not community,

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right community is really, really powerful. And if you

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could find a positive supportive community, it's especially

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communities Wade, we try to help people build communities that

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are, that don't stigmatize mental health and that are added

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that provide accurate information and access to good

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resources. And, you know, help community moderators, and

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managers and creators do that, right. If you can do that, you

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often set people up for success without them needing further

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intervention. That said, especially as we come into year

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three of this pandemic, like mental health challenges are

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ubiquitous, that people are really suffering. And the truth

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is that a lot of people need access to services, that's that

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there's problems with that continuum, what we call the

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continuum of care, especially in the US, and across Western

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Europe. But there's and there's, you know, there's, there's

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problems with, like, supply, like the availability of care.

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But there's also challenges around just stigma and not

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knowing how to access it, and what to do and where to start.

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So we try to talk about that stuff, which is just general

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mental health, you know, knowledge. But, um, but we also,

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you know, we want to one of the things that we're increasingly

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talking about, and you're like, how do we talk to parents, what

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is the issue is, you know, what do we want to say that's about

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the positives and negatives, like, in general, playing games,

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and playing games online is really wonderful for people.

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And, and it, and it fulfills all kinds of needs that people have

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for play. I mean, play is like a universal need. And it turns

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out, adults need to play not just kids and all kinds of

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stuff, the psychology around that is really interesting. And

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the evidence about you know, play and games as a cultural

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force exists for millennia, you know, across all kinds of

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cultures. And so we, we know that, but we also know that the

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ways that certain games are built, the ways that communities

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function online, and the experience that kids have

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online, it can be really, really problematic, and in some time,

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and sometimes downright dangerous. And so when I speak

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to parents about online gaming, I say, in online spaces in

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general, including social media, I'm like, and I have an 11 year

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old. So you know, I talk to parents a lot. I say this is the

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only place where you need to be a helicopter parent, you

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actually want to be a helicopter parent, you want to be really

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aware of what they're doing online, where and how. And, in

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fact, you know, my child, my 11 year old, a lot of her peers

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have cell phones already. My child is not getting a cell

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phone for a number of years to come. And I and that's a very

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intentional choice right? There. She spends a lot of time on

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screens more time than a lot of other parents would. But that's

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because she's doing all kinds of things on screens, and one of my

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research director talks about instead of talking about like,

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screen time, she talks about a digital diet, this kind It's not

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from her, but it comes from other really interesting

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research, the idea of a digital diet, what are the things you're

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doing on line? And what needs do they fulfill? And what kind of

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activity are they? Like, it's one thing, if you're gonna sit

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in front of Netflix for six hours a day, it's another thing

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entirely. If you're talking with your friends, if you are playing

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or creating cool things online, if you're writing, you know,

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those are all really different kinds of activities. They may

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all involve a screen, but that's okay. Right. And so, so I, we

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tried to bring a lot of nuance and,

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and perspective to the conversation around gaming and

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game use. There are things that are very concerning online, and

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they especially around extremist behavior, the normalizing of

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hate speech, white supremacist fascist and a neo Nazi language

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that's really scary and real, it's small problem, but it's

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loud. And so a lot of people get exposed to it. harassment and

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abuse across across online spaces, including in games, it's

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really tough. And we are only at the tip of the iceberg

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understanding what's actually happening in games, because

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there just hasn't been as much research and as much work done

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inside games, or as much acknowledgement of the issue.

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It's like games outside of games like social media and stuff. And

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it's less visible. It's harder to find, right? Yeah. Yeah.

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Because we don't, they're not public spaces. So they're harder

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to

Lindsay Poss:

do. It's harder to comb through hours and hours

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chat. Yeah. And if it's written, yeah, it's

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really. Yeah. It's really, yeah, it's and some of

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the tech challenges are really big. Right. And so like, we

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acknowledge that it's not like, I think people are just, you

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know, bad. And don't care. I think it's just really we've,

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we've come up against some big problems. So so we try to, you

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know, we try to talk about stuff in in nuanced ways. I think I'm

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answering your question. You

Lindsay Poss:

are no little business. Tell me your thoughts,

Lindsay Poss:

questions, though. You're doing great. Tell

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me about that. Yeah. So that's Yeah, yeah. I mean,

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that's, that's kind of the like online space. Conversation,

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there's a whole separate conversation around. Harm and

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working conditions and cultural norms in the industry. Like a

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few years ago, we put out a white paper on the state of

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mental health and games, we've now started the culture shift

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project, which is addressing specifically gender based harm

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in games, in partnership with Feminist Frequency and other

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great nonprofit. We've talked extensively and have an older

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white paper on crunch and the issues of mental health issues

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around crunch and trying to debunk all of those myths, we

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talk a lot about the danger of the myth of passion and games

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that like if you're passionate, you come to games, because

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you're passionate about games, which means that that can be

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kind of weaponized and exploited and turn into something that

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forces people to work long hours and in dysfunctional

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environments that are so we talk a lot about those pieces. We're

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increasingly interested in what the Fair Play Alliance and

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others across the industry are doing around positive design,

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like how do you design for pro social outcomes. And a little

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plug to my husband's game studio, Spry Fox, which has made

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a number of games that like really are trying to actively do

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that. They're not the only ones. There's some other really

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wonderful studios too, and a lot of indie studios are thinking a

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lot about pro social design. And so yeah, so there's, we have our

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fingers in a lot of different places, and are just really

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trying to move the needle where it feels like we can measurably

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impact people's experience, and their ability to be well while

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enjoying this wonderful hobby and, and industry, which I love.

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Um,

Lindsay Poss:

there's two quick things to discuss. One is that I

Lindsay Poss:

individually, yeah, specifically when it relates to parenting, I

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had read an article about you know, everyone was kind of

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thrown wasting time when school cancelled and all this stuff was

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happening. And one woman said her son had been recording like

Lindsay Poss:

videos and stuff on his golf round and coming back through

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and editing them and making all these YouTube videos and showing

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his friends and she basically said, I can't believe I think so

Lindsay Poss:

worried about limiting screen time when all I was doing was

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like limiting his creative outlet with video editing and

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creating. I think I thought that was really poignant observation.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, digital diet. That is what you said. The second thing is

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that I did a really, really cool interview with with three

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developers that was released couple weeks ago who are

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building a game tries to reward positive social behavior and

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rewards role models and create different levels. As a vertical

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competition, you want to earn more points, you can go in with

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the beginners and teach them. But if you just want to get

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logged on our game Oh, dance play and do that. Anyways,

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really cool interview it was it was, like you said, kind of a

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reframing the way we think, in development. So that those

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things are baked in from beginning. It was really, really

Lindsay Poss:

cool concept. So I remember that. So anyways, with that in

Lindsay Poss:

mind, totally. What steps are you hoping to see within the

Lindsay Poss:

industry? And these are very broad sort of conversations.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, and in help improve or promote better mental health

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awareness for how players are interacting with games. And

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again, very broad strokes here. But we've there's just there's,

Lindsay Poss:

there's been a lot of negative news, like, what can game

Lindsay Poss:

companies do to start working on that? Yeah, and these are a big

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question.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, I mean, I think

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one of the challenges that the game industry is facing

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right now and has been for a little while is there's such a

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moral panic around games. That's wrong. The moral panic is around

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games cause violence and games are addictive. And like, that's

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been disproven over and over and over again and insanely. In

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fact, to who is starting to have to publicly walk back its

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adoption of game internet game addiction as a or any internet

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gaming disorder as a as a valid diagnosis, even though because

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they were pressured into it by certain countries, which is

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fast. So the but the moral panic, what the moral panic has

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done, it is made that whole industry and people who identify

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as gamers are played people who love games, very defensive, and

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not really feel comfortable, like they can talk about the

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real things that they worry about in games. Because they're

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so busy defending games from these stupid accusations that

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are not true. And, and then you then the industry is like in

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this environment, this online environment that's really toxic.

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Like, being a game developer. In public online means that you,

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you receive harassment, like there is you can't do one

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without the other. You can't say I'd make games publicly without

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expecting expecting harassment online. And so in sometimes,

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like really awful harassment, like Daxing, and swatting, and

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those kinds of things, but but but not always. And so that

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makes people really cautious and scared. And also, at the same

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time, the industry has, like a lot of tech and a lot of

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society, a real problem with harm, gender, race, harm,

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marginalization of people of color, and marginalized genders

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and sexualities. And over and over and over, and over and over

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again, in the way that hiring and promotion is done in the way

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that games it's topics are chosen in the way that

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portrayals in the way that people portray characters and,

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and, and mythologies, and tropes and etc, in games, like over and

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over and over again. And then you get people see people trying

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to claim that their games are political, which drives me nuts.

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And so those two things, and then you have this history of

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the gamer identity and this marketing and reinforcement of

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an idea that a gamer is a white male of a certain age, which

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excludes a lot of people from that identity and from that

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space. And you know, and people are starting like companies are

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showing recognize that that's wrong and starting to break out

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of that, but it's a pretty persistent identity and we've

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got some new research that my research director is doing on

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gamer identity that makes that even more scary and but

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interesting fascinating because of the way that gamer identity

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is matched with like extremist belief and enter and neo Nazi

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and fascist identity and and that's fun. But yeah, really

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delightful. But But what you do is you have all of those things

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packed together and you have a really challenging environment

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in which it's hard to push the needle forward. Especially at

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big game companies who really are risk averse to in thinking

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about how do I, how do we talk about games differently? How do

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we build games that are really different and how do we how do

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we Get out of this idea of people who play games are the

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same people who make games and who are they? And what is their

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identity? Right.

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And so so you have to find disruptors in that, in that

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cycle. And one of the, there has been these these three years or

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others in these really major breaking stories about game

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companies being abusive and harassing and bad working

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environments, especially for women, but for many identities,

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and, and like, they're the most egregious and the most, and

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they're in cat two in the morning, California. So the

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state of California was like, we're gonna get on this

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bandwagon, right? They are, they are the tip of the iceberg,

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right? They're the visible tip of the iceberg in the sense that

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they are indicative of a larger culture across the industry. And

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that has been an opportunity that we've seen to say it come

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in and be like, Okay, we need to talk about and address this

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thing, this work environment. But when you do that, the

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business case is that then you will make games and create

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spaces that are better for and more representative of a larger

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audience. Right? Because if more people are included in the room,

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when you make games, you're gonna make a game that addresses

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more experiences, more needs, etc. And so we're seeing that

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gradually shift across the industry in very exciting. These

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are big ships to move, and then cultural forces to address like,

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I am not any under under any illusions as to like how far

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this needs to go. But that's kind of that's what I see.

Lindsay Poss:

That's what I see. What's good. I mean, I'm

Lindsay Poss:

encouraged by it in this is a sentiment that comes up on the

Lindsay Poss:

show quite a bit that progress is being made, like you said,

Lindsay Poss:

they're big shifts to move, it's slower than we'd like. Um, yeah.

Lindsay Poss:

But at least there's things that are happening.

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That really are and yeah, I mean, I want to say that

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you know, this is, this is really about cultural change in

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hearts and minds, right? And we're growing faster than we can

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get almost faster than we can manage it, take this, which

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means that there is some level of demand and interest. That's

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substantial. That's it, we're not going to change everybody's

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mind, we're not going to impact everybody's work experience. And

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also, there are vast cultural differences, especially when it

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comes to mental health, and the way people talk about mental

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health and mental illness cross culturally. And so we're really

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good at speaking to this in in the US, Canada and Western

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Europe. But when I try to speak to a company that's working in

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Malaysia, or in Japan, or in South America, like the, the

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conversations that I can have, and the the people that I need

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to work with, in order to have even have those conversations,

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because they're culturally so different. Those are those are

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bigger gaps and bigger shifts. Sometimes, and you know, I, we

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just have to be real about that, like, there's going to be shifts

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across the industry that come faster in some places than

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others. Well, that's good. Yeah. You. We all do we all do

Lindsay Poss:

every little thing from that one. So, yeah, I want

Lindsay Poss:

to talk more about culture shift and what you do, and this

Lindsay Poss:

frequency actually talks in the space. I was actually fortunate

Lindsay Poss:

enough just to sit in recently on on research that's coming out

Lindsay Poss:

soon, by a woman who saw the scale of what she called the

Lindsay Poss:

glass monitor, in that term. Industry and it's something

Lindsay Poss:

you're familiar with, I'm happy to say more, said it was a lot

Lindsay Poss:

about women in gaming. The problem from the very beginning

Lindsay Poss:

is lack of familial support as young girls and gaming is seen

Lindsay Poss:

as a boy activity, all the way up to hostile environments for

Lindsay Poss:

all the gamers and playing a wide developing game streaming

Lindsay Poss:

all of all of the energy associated activities, whether

Lindsay Poss:

you're just someone who started playing a game when you're 17,

Lindsay Poss:

and went online one time, all the way to you are, you know,

Lindsay Poss:

poking at one of the biggest streamers on one of the largest

Lindsay Poss:

gaming streaming platforms, what that looks like. So I want to

Lindsay Poss:

talk more about culture shift and Feminist Frequency and just

Lindsay Poss:

about the resources that you offer people who are in

Lindsay Poss:

traditionally underserved communities, from women to

Lindsay Poss:

people of color people of different sexual orientations.

Lindsay Poss:

And, and what advice you're giving on the industry side to

Lindsay Poss:

try and get those folks more in the room, make sure that their

Lindsay Poss:

needs and just their general safety requirements are being

Lindsay Poss:

met.

Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. So I'll say I want to frame this to say that

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harm is happening across lots of different intersectional

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identities. And and it's really important to acknowledge that

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we're talking about gender based harm at the cultural shift

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project, because it's the one that has come where the opening

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is where the opportunity is. And because we have to, you have to

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be really specific when you talk about harm, and unpacking

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different types of harm. And so we have to start somewhere with

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something very specific, in order to do it justice. So this

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is the one we're starting with is gender based harm, with an

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acknowledgement of those intersectionalities and Anita

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Sarkeesian. And I began speaking, like, three, three

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years ago, when the first allegations about riot came out.

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And there was also like, it was the same there was there was,

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there was the whole, all the allegations about riot. And then

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there was also a bunch of exposure of streamers, and there

Unknown:

was a whole bunch of stuff at the same time, it happened all

Unknown:

around PAX West. And, and she and I started with talking, we

Unknown:

had never met each other, but we kind of knew each other's

Unknown:

orbits. And we were like, well, we have to do something about

Unknown:

this. What you know, there's and there's a lot of different

Unknown:

pieces of the puzzle. And so she was able to Yeah, she was able

Unknown:

to get the games and online harassment hotline up and

Unknown:

running. And that's still a project of Feminist Frequency,

Unknown:

right fantastic resource, really, and well informed on

Unknown:

gender based harm but then she and I and spokes on her team as

Unknown:

well. begins talking for a while kind of figuring out what how do

Unknown:

we do culture to culture? Like really, culture change work? How

Unknown:

do you start with leadership? What does that look like? We we

Unknown:

put together a lot of different ideas. And you know, in the

Unknown:

meantime, news kept coming in Ubisoft, Activision Blizzard,

Unknown:

and Activision Blizzard really kind of broke open ever

Unknown:

Suddenly, everyone was was like, we have to talk about this, it's

Unknown:

not going to stop, and it's not going to change. And we had

Unknown:

meantime arrived at this really, at this framework of called

Unknown:

accountability and repair, which comes from restorative

Unknown:

reparative. Justice. And that's, it comes from indigenous and,

Unknown:

and black culture, right? This really different approach. It's

Unknown:

not called carceral, or punitive. It's not legalistic it

Unknown:

is how do you do actual repair, take actual accountability. And,

Unknown:

and put those together at a framework that works in a work

Unknown:

environment. Because the thing is that the industry because

Unknown:

it's a mobile, it's a small mobile industry, where people

Unknown:

move around a lot, and you know, from job to job, is, exists,

Unknown:

like functions with all kinds of whisper networks, and lots of

Unknown:

harm. And lots of like, really, people lots of trauma that

Unknown:

people have, like internalized and, and like SAP lived with for

Unknown:

a long time. And those things don't go away, and they don't

Unknown:

get better. And whisper networks, like, they're all

Unknown:

we've got. But they're really bad tools. Because they, if

Unknown:

you're not in the network, you don't get access to the

Unknown:

information, they escalate things right, instead of de

Unknown:

escalate, and they don't help anyone change. They don't help

Unknown:

anyone, be healed or repaired. And they don't have people

Unknown:

who've caused harm to like, figure out what they've done and

Unknown:

do better. They just like blacklist people. And you need

Unknown:

that new model. And so that was really, we decided that was the

Unknown:

model that we needed to come to the plate with was a different

Unknown:

way of thinking about harm, that really held people truly

Unknown:

accountable, and gave them the tools and knowledge and

Unknown:

opportunity to change and focused on the survivor and gave

Unknown:

them a sense of repair and support and healing. Because if

Unknown:

you don't help a survivor, you just like investigate whether or

Unknown:

not their allegation is right. You've left them kind of high

Unknown:

and dry, and they still have that trauma. And that experience

Unknown:

like that doesn't solve the damn thing. So this was the set of

Unknown:

this is the framework that we are coming to the table with.

Unknown:

And that's like, that's a big shift, especially in corporate

Unknown:

environments with big legal departments and HR departments.

Unknown:

Huge shift. So we're like, how do we implement that? How do we

Unknown:

do the acculturation work? How do we like help people

Unknown:

understand harm and consent and power dynamics? And then how do

Unknown:

we and bystander behavior? And then how do we change the actual

Unknown:

systems and how people implement accountability and repair

Unknown:

process and understand what that looks like and understand why.

Unknown:

And so that's what the culture shift project is. And it's a

Unknown:

it's It's Feminist Frequency and take this and our teams. And we

Unknown:

we're rolling out our first engagement right now. That's

Unknown:

really exciting. And, and we, you know, we're getting the

Unknown:

large studio, it's over 300, folks, that's awesome. And, and

Unknown:

I think and we've got interest from a number of other places,

Unknown:

too. So I think we'll be we'll be doing that more. And then

Unknown:

we're also looking at Indie indie studios, because they have

Unknown:

less capacity to pay and smaller groups, and how do we bring

Unknown:

micronase especially really small studios together and

Unknown:

cohorts and build this program for them like that.

Unknown:

That's the other kind of approach we're taking. So it is

Unknown:

our desire to talk about accountability repair, like I

Unknown:

did a talk with two of my colleagues Casio awkward. And

Unknown:

Jalen at GDC about credibility and repair. How do we like bring

Unknown:

that idea, that concept to the table? More? And then how do we

Unknown:

do this at a studio? Yeah,

Lindsay Poss:

well, I think focusing on survivors is

Lindsay Poss:

something that I wish. And yeah, really?

Unknown:

Yeah, yeah. Can

Lindsay Poss:

I want to give it a little bit just because I

Lindsay Poss:

don't often get to talk to folks that are in the nonprofit

Unknown:

space with it. Yeah, absolutely. It's annoying

Lindsay Poss:

to hear about take this picture. I hope a lot of

Lindsay Poss:

people go and can use a lot of the resources you provide.

Lindsay Poss:

There's just definitely a lot of news that centered around the

Lindsay Poss:

growth in the industry, which is definitely code for investment

Lindsay Poss:

startups, companies. Which nothing wrong with that. That's

Lindsay Poss:

all great. I'd love to see that kind of growth. But I would love

Lindsay Poss:

to hear more about how what's going on on the nonprofit side.

Lindsay Poss:

And you've mentioned several organizations now that you've

Lindsay Poss:

worked with, collaborated with paired up with to do different

Lindsay Poss:

projects? How what has it been like on the nonprofit side? And

Lindsay Poss:

people who want to get involved? How do they find that?

Unknown:

Industry? Yeah, there is a thriving nonprofit, sector,

Unknown:

two games, which is really cool. And some great advocacy

Unknown:

organizations. And what we all do is we're all able to be there

Unknown:

on the outside as subject matter experts who can, who can act as

Unknown:

advocates, but not apologists for games. So you can be like,

Unknown:

yes, games are awesome. And you can do better in X, Y, or Z

Unknown:

ways, or these are the opportunities and, you know, and

Unknown:

so I mentioned Feminist Frequency, the Fair Play

Unknown:

Alliance. There's a chick Games for Change. AbleGamers is

Unknown:

another great organization, doing advocacy work gamer acts,

Unknown:

you know, and so there are all these great nonprofits, and we,

Unknown:

you know, we have to, we have to find grant funding, we have to

Unknown:

find funding inside the industry, take this, we do a lot

Unknown:

of, you know, we do all these workshops, right, and people pay

Unknown:

for those. And that's an important funding stream for us.

Unknown:

And we have a lot of streamers and volunteers and folks who

Unknown:

come and, you know, do fundraisers on our behalf, which

Unknown:

is really awesome. And so, you know, we have seen our

Unknown:

opportunity and, and scope grow as the game industry has grown.

Unknown:

And as we've been able to kind of find the ways the relevant

Unknown:

way is to talk to the industry about what we're doing. But we,

Unknown:

you know, the thing about nonprofit work is that, like, we

Unknown:

I have a staff, most almost all of my staff are clinicians,

Unknown:

they're, you know, professionals, and that's

Unknown:

intentional. And so the vault we have volunteer opportunities, we

Unknown:

have mod volunteer moderators in our Discord, we have volunteers

Unknown:

who moderate who, who help us run our AFK rooms and our, our

Unknown:

in person presence at conventions. But, but they're

Unknown:

limited, there's not a ton of volunteer opportunities, if you

Unknown:

are interested. The way to get involved is to go to our Discord

Unknown:

and join that community find out kind of get more invested. And

Unknown:

you can find that link on our website, and or in our community

Unknown:

resources page. But the the the truth of the matter is that by

Unknown:

and large nonprofits need money to do our work. That's the way

Unknown:

it works, right? I have to pay the people who work for me.

Unknown:

Yeah. And I have to, you know, we have to pay for all the

Unknown:

systems and tools that allow us to do our jobs well. And when we

Unknown:

have that, then we can provide the services, the resource, the

Unknown:

expertise that is ours to give. But our volunteers are,

Unknown:

increasingly as we build our community out as we as we

Unknown:

increase that profile, that as we increase the number of

Unknown:

community resources we provide, like that's really important to

Unknown:

us. And we also if you're a streamer, content creator, we

Unknown:

haven't a streaming ambassador program, and we will we we have

Unknown:

a semi regular application window, kind of every year where

Unknown:

we bring new Folks in and invite them into a community learning

Unknown:

community and in a kind of promotion, you know, mutual

Unknown:

support community. So it is. Yeah, I mean, that's the

Unknown:

nonprofit sector, we really I thrive most on being knowing

Unknown:

that I can work in collaboration with the industry to do

Unknown:

interesting work and to like change, because that really is

Unknown:

like, if I'm going to move the needle, I've got to get the way

Unknown:

that games are made and the way that game companies operate to,

Unknown:

to change, right. And so that's where I'm most invested in

Unknown:

working and partnering with, and I'm, we're starting to have

Unknown:

those opportunities. Yeah.

Lindsay Poss:

What do you do want to take this into working?

Lindsay Poss:

With gaming, you know,

Unknown:

I'm, I laugh, because I kind of fell into this. And I'm

Unknown:

so happy I did. So I've been my whole career, aside from a brief

Unknown:

stint as a yoga teacher, which I also loved, has been in the

Unknown:

nonprofit sector. So I've I started as a, like, I worked at

Unknown:

the Boston Children's Museum after college, like working on

Unknown:

the floor and the Children's Museum, like running school

Unknown:

field trips, and, you know, like fishing kids out of exhibits and

Unknown:

stuff like that. I've always done this work. Yeah, well,

Unknown:

literally, there was a sea climbing structure. And I

Lindsay Poss:

fell into the koi pond. Yeah. Kind of

Unknown:

felt like that, sometimes, let me tell you, um,

Unknown:

that was, what, 25 years ago. And so So, you know, I always

Unknown:

knew that I wanted to do social change work. And I, it took a

Unknown:

long time of kind of meandering through a number of jobs, going

Unknown:

to grad school to get a master's in cultural studies and coming

Unknown:

back into grant writing, and to kind of figure out where I

Unknown:

wanted to be. And about five years ago, I left an awful job.

Unknown:

And, you know, had to recover from that. And was I was in the

Unknown:

luxury luxurious place of being able to take some time off and

Unknown:

do that, do some consulting. And my husband generously put out

Unknown:

he's, he's, as I mentioned, runs a game studio, and he put out

Unknown:

that I was available for consulting and take this reached

Unknown:

out was like, hey, yeah, we need some help. And it turned out,

Unknown:

they needed a lot of help. And so I came on versus a consultant

Unknown:

than his managing director. And then they were like, can you?

Unknown:

Can you just take the job? I was like, Okay. And it took me a

Unknown:

little while to figure out that being the executive director of

Unknown:

take this meant that I could do the work that I'd always wanted

Unknown:

to do. But once I figured that out, it was like, I was off to

Unknown:

the races, and I so gratified by what I'm doing, and where I'm

Unknown:

doing it. And it's so fun to work in this industry. And, and

Unknown:

to celebrate what games are and what they can be. So yeah, it's

Unknown:

been it's just I can't believe my luck at this point.

Lindsay Poss:

A fun story, though. Yeah. It is. Because I

Lindsay Poss:

know, you know, I know that I have a similar path. But I don't

Lindsay Poss:

want to focus on I was previously in the nonprofit and

Lindsay Poss:

know our folks in the nonprofit area, I think it's just good to

Lindsay Poss:

know that you can pursue the things that you want to pursue,

Lindsay Poss:

it's still untapped in gaming years, I think was a little bit

Lindsay Poss:

more, maybe maybe more on the chance side of chance and

Lindsay Poss:

attention. But it's also an intention side that people can

Lindsay Poss:

can take up and if you love nonprofit work, like if you love

Lindsay Poss:

games, so

Unknown:

I mean, we're, you know, we're, we're hiring and

Unknown:

we're hiring actually a non clinical job soon. And it's, you

Unknown:

know, like, show a volunteer for us, because because this work is

Unknown:

expanding the work, not just of take this, but a lot of these

Unknown:

organizations, so kind of showing up around them. There's

Unknown:

opportunity everywhere, and there's really cool stuff

Unknown:

happening. Yeah.

Lindsay Poss:

Well, in that vein, I want to end with a

Lindsay Poss:

question. What am I my big passion from the passions that I

Lindsay Poss:

shared on the show a lot is about emerging tech. Sure. So

Lindsay Poss:

the building of the metaverse, we talked about that a lot. And

Lindsay Poss:

it's mostly just because I really, really like thinking

Lindsay Poss:

about web three blockchain and Metaverse, and all these all

Lindsay Poss:

these buzz wordy things, actually, complicated tech

Lindsay Poss:

behind them. But it definitely definitely seen a result of tech

Lindsay Poss:

moving a lot faster than our understanding of the

Lindsay Poss:

consequences of tech. Mental health is not necessarily an

Lindsay Poss:

early consideration, as evidenced by several people

Lindsay Poss:

including one of the whistleblowers last year who

Lindsay Poss:

brought forth research about how negatively impacted young girls

Lindsay Poss:

are by Instagram use the company's hashtag hold on to

Lindsay Poss:

them and not been there. But as we start with these new

Lindsay Poss:

experiences, and I think there's a lot of people out there who

Lindsay Poss:

are excited about these things, I suppose, and I'm putting in

Lindsay Poss:

quotes here, but the equity opportunities and all of this

Lindsay Poss:

and blockchain is supposed to be decentralized. It's supposed to

Lindsay Poss:

be available. They're supposed to be much more even playing

Lindsay Poss:

field out there. What are you thinking about when it comes to

Lindsay Poss:

this tech? And how do you feel about that from a mental health

Lindsay Poss:

perspective? Like, I don't know exactly how to frame the

Lindsay Poss:

question. I don't know how to frame the question. Densely

Lindsay Poss:

broad thing, but

Unknown:

yeah, well, yeah. I'll break off a couple of pieces of

Unknown:

it. One is that there's some preliminary research. Yeah. We

Unknown:

can digest this a little bit, but there there. There's

Unknown:

preliminary research into like Metaverse, and when I say

Unknown:

Metaverse, what I mean is immersive online environments

Unknown:

because we don't have Metaverse yet, right? But VR and AR

Unknown:

environments and Metaverse like immersive environments. That the

Unknown:

same kind of harassment and, and marginalizing and, and scary

Unknown:

experiences are happening there as they're happening in the rest

Unknown:

of the internet. Like, I could have probably could have told

Unknown:

you that before. But like, it's not different. It is not

Unknown:

measurably different, it's not measuring better. And in fact,

Unknown:

it might be a little bit worse. So like, we when we create open

Unknown:

spaces online, ah, in especially because all of this stuff has

Unknown:

been normalized in online spaces. Hate speech. All this

Unknown:

all this really like a you know, I mentioned earlier that the

Unknown:

problem around extremist terrorist behavior and fascist

Unknown:

behavior is like really small, but it's really loud. Like,

Unknown:

that's the same. It's the same whether the, whether we're

Unknown:

talking about Web 2.0, or web three, or what else or Metaverse

Unknown:

or whatever, like, it's the same. And so like, before we go

Unknown:

tumbling down that road, we got a lot of work to do. We just do.

Lindsay Poss:

The things about

Unknown:

blockchain and NFT. Is, is also it's a similar one to,

Unknown:

like,

Lindsay Poss:

two critiques I have about

Unknown:

capitalism, which is who's actually benefiting. And

Unknown:

by and large, it's still a speculators, speculation. And,

Unknown:

you know, it's an it's a market for investors and speculators.

Unknown:

And it's a bubble. And so most people who are involved are not

Unknown:

benefiting and don't have access to the actual boom of it. And,

Unknown:

and, and so there's some nuggets in there that are interesting

Unknown:

and exciting, that relate to people actually being able to

Unknown:

own things online, but like, they're still copyable, there's

Unknown:

still a lot of there's still, it's not like it's, and a lot of

Unknown:

that stuff is also already been done in many interesting ways in

Unknown:

games, right? It's not, it's not dramatically different. I've

Unknown:

seen a few interesting examples of really communities coming up

Unknown:

around NF T's in a way, like shared ownership ideas of shared

Unknown:

ownership. And those are compelling. I just haven't seen

Unknown:

them scale yet. And I haven't I haven't seen them exist outside

Unknown:

of what overall overarching Lee is a is a what, to me is a kind

Unknown:

of wild west speculated. environment. So I'm pretty you

Unknown:

can see here, I'm a pretty heavy skeptic when it comes to this

Unknown:

stuff. But I'm a skeptic, because I've seen how it's

Unknown:

played out iteration by iteration in tech. And who has

Unknown:

benefited and who hasn't. And who continues to benefit and who

Unknown:

has continues to have access to capital and like, if the

Unknown:

structural issues around capitalism and and the

Unknown:

concentration of wealth don't change, then they don't change,

Unknown:

whether it's web 2.0 or web 3.0. Like, that's just, yeah, that's

Unknown:

the way it is. So there is some nugget of really interesting

Unknown:

tech in there and like, you know, and I'm sure that some of

Unknown:

that will shake out, but in the meantime, the other stuff will

Unknown:

shake up too. And I'm pretty short of that.

Lindsay Poss:

I Yeah. And that's good. I I've had you know,

Lindsay Poss:

people on the show who are very interested in into it and ready

Lindsay Poss:

to go and I've had other people who are more on the and of what

Lindsay Poss:

is expiring, but like, let's fix some stuff first. And I think

Lindsay Poss:

that yeah, on both sides. There's a there's a way for both

Lindsay Poss:

Most people to coexist and really get something out of a

Lindsay Poss:

relationship that I think would be beneficial for both.

Unknown:

Oh, yeah, I do think there's a nugget there, but it's

Unknown:

right. Yeah, I think I think people kind of throwing all

Unknown:

their eggs into that basket being like, oh, yeah, I just

Unknown:

don't see it. Yeah.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, just, I'm with you on that. Um, before we,

Lindsay Poss:

before I get into my last question, I'm gonna do a quick

Lindsay Poss:

summary of what we talked about so far. So take this supports

Lindsay Poss:

people make and play games and content creators. So a lot of

Lindsay Poss:

folks within the gaming community by reducing rock

Lindsay Poss:

interact with it. One of one thing, one way I found to be

Lindsay Poss:

very succinctly describes a lot of what you do is that you want

Lindsay Poss:

to bring good and accurate science to the gaming community.

Lindsay Poss:

You want to encourage protective factors to help build

Lindsay Poss:

resiliency, you want to encourage good community

Lindsay Poss:

development, we want to help people fulfill a lot of needs

Lindsay Poss:

that they can fulfill online, and bring all kinds of play back

Lindsay Poss:

into daily life. And provide those kind of healthy

Lindsay Poss:

environments in order to do that. And one thing that we

Lindsay Poss:

talked about a lot with parenting is that it's actually

Lindsay Poss:

good to be a helicopter parents in these environments that you

Lindsay Poss:

can go in and see that those are the types of things that are

Lindsay Poss:

happening online, rather than a lot of the other stuff that's

Lindsay Poss:

out there and is prevalent. And there's more work to do in

Lindsay Poss:

certain geographic areas than others. That was really

Lindsay Poss:

important to me, because I get lost us focus a lot. Some lot of

Lindsay Poss:

things are happening in the US market things. The big ships are

Lindsay Poss:

moving slowly as the US whereas in other markets, yeah, they're

Lindsay Poss:

not moving. They're anchored in a really ugly, hard, or they're

Unknown:

different. They're just really different to Yeah, yeah,

Unknown:

yeah,

Lindsay Poss:

um, we talked about culture shift, how you

Lindsay Poss:

were starting the gender based harm. There's absolutely other

Lindsay Poss:

intersections of people that face harm. But this is a

Lindsay Poss:

starting point. I wanted to bring back up the games and

Lindsay Poss:

online harassment hotline just running linked in the show

Lindsay Poss:

notes. And one of the things that we spent a lot of time was

Lindsay Poss:

understanding on and taking the non punitive approach by instead

Lindsay Poss:

supporting supporting survivors, and creating an accountability

Lindsay Poss:

and repair process, which I think is a good take in a lot of

Lindsay Poss:

areas. But as I just think that the people who are harmed should

Lindsay Poss:

be the priority. And there's a thriving nonprofit sector in

Lindsay Poss:

games. So getting a chance to actually work with with the

Lindsay Poss:

industry and, and alongside the industry to move the needle and

Lindsay Poss:

make a difference is definitely a possibility. If that's

Lindsay Poss:

something that people out there are interested in, go check out,

Lindsay Poss:

take this, go to your nonprofit passions into gaming, gaming

Lindsay Poss:

needs more of it. Lots of good stuff happen. And then lastly,

Lindsay Poss:

we talked a little special with the metaverse. preliminary

Lindsay Poss:

research into immersive online environments shows the exact

Lindsay Poss:

same kind of of the stuff that's happening, there isn't the rest

Lindsay Poss:

of the internet, which is 0% Surprising. Still a little sad,

Lindsay Poss:

that I like to hear your stance that there's nugget within the

Lindsay Poss:

tech nuggets within the tech that's interesting and exciting.

Lindsay Poss:

But it's not dramatically different than what's out there.

Lindsay Poss:

And there's a need to fix structural issues first, before

Lindsay Poss:

diving headfirst into this is what we're doing. So with that,

Lindsay Poss:

I like to ask this question at the end of every podcast is

Lindsay Poss:

really fun to look back on your career. And I want to ask you,

Lindsay Poss:

what is one thing you would like to tell your younger self

Lindsay Poss:

getting into the gaming industry needs?

Unknown:

I think I won't answer in terms of getting into games

Unknown:

because it really like that was that was a that was a

Unknown:

happenstance thing, but like the thing that I would want to say,

Unknown:

to my younger self is to have patience, that you're you're

Unknown:

gonna do a lot of things that will feel frustrating, or not

Unknown:

quite the right thing, or won't really answer the question you

Unknown:

thought you needed to ask. But, but at some point, those will

Unknown:

start to coalesce. And it takes longer to get to that place a

Unknown:

lot of times then you want it to

Lindsay Poss:

you know, I'm I I've been

Unknown:

working I graduated college in 1999. And, and I'm in

Unknown:

the job, the first job where I really feel like this is exactly

Unknown:

where I want to be and I'm doing exactly what I wanted to do. And

Unknown:

you know, that took a while objectively and as a woman, you

Unknown:

know, there was time I took I made the choice as a mother to

Unknown:

take some time off when my daughter was really young and

Unknown:

you know, that slowed me down but but it's also enriched me

Unknown:

and made me a better, you know, more informed person in a lot of

Unknown:

ways and so, like, have patience with yourself with your or

Unknown:

career trajectory. Get out if things are really bad, like

Unknown:

leave the the shitty jobs. You don't always know that they're

Unknown:

bad when they start, but like leave those, like do that. But

Unknown:

otherwise give yourself the space to not go in a straight

Unknown:

line. And to ask the wrong questions and get different

Unknown:

answers than you expected, you know?

Lindsay Poss:

Oh, that's wonderful. Enjoy the winding

Lindsay Poss:

journey. Like it. Yeah,

Unknown:

yeah. Yeah. And like, I also will acknowledge that,

Unknown:

like, I'm supremely lucky to do what I do and what I you know,

Unknown:

to be able to be here like, not everybody gets this opportunity,

Unknown:

but it did. It wasn't a straight line here. Oh, god.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, probably Israel, not what I'm

Lindsay Poss:

hearing very lucky to have met. Right. So yeah. With you. Um,

Lindsay Poss:

thank you so much for coming on. Where can people find you? This?

Lindsay Poss:

Interact with your work volunteer for you? I know you

Lindsay Poss:

mentioned the discord on your website. Where else?

Unknown:

Yeah, so take the set. org we have. We have. We're on

Unknown:

Twitter, take this org and Facebook. Take this org and

Unknown:

LinkedIn, and Instagram. It's all take this work. And in

Unknown:

YouTube, as well, we have a number of resources up there.

Unknown:

And you can find them all on social media or via our website

Unknown:

and we have a mental health resources page. And our websites

Unknown:

are easy to find that has crisis. Crisis lines, emotional

Unknown:

support hotlines, lots of resources for if you or a friend

Unknown:

or family member needs help.

Lindsay Poss:

Yes, no. That gives the game. For all

Lindsay Poss:

listeners out there. Leave the five star ratings and reviews

Lindsay Poss:

made no comment on my terrible voice this week. Be sure other

Lindsay Poss:

holodeck media podcast, including metal business. All

Lindsay Poss:

the metaverse finance stories you could ever want business in

Lindsay Poss:

esports for interviews with industry leaders. I'm on

Lindsay Poss:

Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn boss. You can catch me Wednesday

Lindsay Poss:

nights on the business esports live after show and you can

Lindsay Poss:

catch this podcast and your feed every week. See you next time.

Unknown:

Thanks for joining us here on meta woman. Make sure to

Unknown:

subscribe to this podcast everywhere you get your

Unknown:

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Unknown:

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About the Podcast

META Woman
Weekly metaverse content - for women, by women
Meta Woman will focus on addressing the issues, opportunities, and challenges facing women in the development of the Metaverse. Top female executives and business people operating within the gaming and crypto industries bring a wide range of perspectives through regular guest appearances.