Episode 31

full
Published on:

28th Jun 2022

31. Being You is Enough

*Major Episode Alert* This week features two incredible leaders in the gaming industry: Dr. Mitu Khandaker (CEO) and Latoya Peterson (CXO) join me from Glow Up Games. In its own words, “Glow Up Games is a game studio centering innovative storytelling about black and brown joy.” Mitu and Latoya walk me through what it was like developing a mobile game based on the hit HBO series Insecure (by amazing creator Issa Rae). Join us for a conversation on race, fundraising, company building, and what it's like to meet your heroes.

Episode Resources:

http://glowup.games/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kemberliespivey/2021/11/29/hbo-and-glow-up-games-launches-a-insecure-mobile-game-called-the-come-up/?sh=659eee11515c 

https://igda-website.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/18113901/IGDA-DSS-2021_SummaryReport_2021.pdf 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kemberliespivey/2021/11/29/hbo-and-glow-up-games-launches-a-insecure-mobile-game-called-the-come-up/?sh=659eee11515c 

https://www.dbltap.com/posts/latoya-peterson-diversity-in-games-01f4wcm7jexg 

https://www.publicbooks.org/ai-rap-synthesis-tools-black-hip-hop/

Transcript
Unknown:

Welcome to the meadow woman podcast. We address the

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issues, opportunities and challenges facing women in the

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development of the metaverse the biggest revolution since the

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internet itself. Every week we bring you conversations with top

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female talent and business executives operating in the

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gaming and crypto industries. Here's your host Lindsey the

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boss POS, the meta woman podcast starts now.

Lindsay Poss:

Hello, and welcome to the men and women podcast or

Lindsay Poss:

the holodeck media Podcast Network. I'm your host Lindsay

Lindsay Poss:

The Boss Boss and I'm Charlotte success recovering it all. Hello

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returning listeners. Thank you so much for supporting the show.

Lindsay Poss:

It means the world to me. For all our new listeners. I hope

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you enjoy and come back next week. Today we have a multiple

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guests episode, which is always so fun to get to have a good

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conversation good banter. I am beyond excited to introduce Dr.

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metoo khandaker CEO and Latoya Peterson CXO in both co founders

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of blow up games. I'm taking a line directly from their website

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here but love games is a studio games are sorry. Restart, quote.

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Love Games is a studio game studio, centering innovative

Lindsay Poss:

storytelling about black and brown. Join me to and Latoya I

Lindsay Poss:

would love for you both to further introduce yourself and

Lindsay Poss:

glow games to the audience. All right. Well, hi. And

Unknown:

thanks for having us. So yeah, I'm documenting and

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daycare. And yeah, the tour and I founded golf games about three

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years ago. And like you said, you know, we really are all

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about telling stories and centering stories, which

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celebrate people of color, celebrate Black and Brown joy,

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which is stories, which just don't get seen told in video

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games historically.

Unknown:

Yeah, absolutely. So a few years ago, we started on this journey,

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I think, you know, Matteo, and I had both been, you know, first

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friends, you know, other two brown girls in the games

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industry, I was writing about games to was creating games, but

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we kind of gravitated on Twitter, and then in real life.

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And then secondly, just understanding that like, you

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know, we both grew up in very similar fashions, we've been

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playing games since we were tiny. I think once you started

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four, and I started at six, and we just never saw protagonists

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that look like us, or stories like ours on screen. And you

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know, as the years went on, like more and more titles, it just

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didn't seem to change. And so we realized that, you know, for the

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change that we wanted to see to happen, get directly involved.

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Yeah. And, you know, I'm someone that's, like, I've been in the

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games industry for like, 14 or 15 years, or has been in the

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media industry for that long. And, you know, we've just done a

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lot of stuff throughout our careers in our respective

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spaces. And, you know, we, one of the things that pretty much

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led to the formation of our aims is seeing how in a lot of

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adjacent spaces like Hollywood TV, other spaces were really

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creators of color, and other underrepresented creators are

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being empowered to tell their own stories, and finding a lot

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of success and a huge audience doing it. And knowing that, that

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is something that could totally happen in video games. If only

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you know, folks, like myself in the toilet could step up. And

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and, you know, and make that happen. So here we are. Yes, I

Lindsay Poss:

love that whole origin story. Can you tell me

Lindsay Poss:

where the name glow up came from? That's not a question I

Lindsay Poss:

had written. But I really liked that name.

Unknown:

Yeah, I mean, so we went through, like, 1000 What

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should we call? Yeah, I mean, we went through all kinds of

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different kind of beta test. I think we all have different

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domain names registered in 15 different other alternate

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company names this could have been but I think for us below

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up, and that whole idea of having a glow up of making

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yourself better of beautifying of changing something that, you

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know, needed an improvement of leveling up, it just felt like

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that was the right term for what we were trying to do as a

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company and as a game studio. We're also just fans of having a

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big blowup of watching something look much better. So, you know,

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fun and fam and you know, I think what was the other word

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that we use all time space BIM energy and what what the

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aesthetic of the studio is and so what better ways having a

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woman of color found a game studio?

Lindsay Poss:

Oh, great. I love that. Yeah, I Yeah, totally

Lindsay Poss:

agree. Let's start by talking about your your game development

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projects, and chiefly the partnership you've developed

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with HBO and its hit series, insecure, which I hope that

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everyone has seen or knows about insecure. I will confess I am

Lindsay Poss:

not a watcher. I am an avid BuzzFeed article reader about

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isa ray in the show. Yeah, I mean TV shows struggle me and

Lindsay Poss:

reality TV get along great but real TV shows I struggle with

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but I will read any article or read any plot summary of any TV

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show. But I know that you all formed a partnership and slash

Lindsay Poss:

collaboration. Happy to use your language on that whatever it may

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be to create a companion mobile game called insecure the come

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up. And this is obviously such a huge partnership and

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accomplishment for a studio and a three year old studio. are

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just incredible. I don't think it's surprising shows me that

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there's a huge appetite for telling these stories, not only

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in traditional media, but in newer media, and that there's

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more than enough room to tell these stories to several

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different audiences and in a variety of ways. So how did this

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happen? Tell me the whole story of of working with insecure and

Lindsay Poss:

creating the game and where you are with the come up and what

Lindsay Poss:

it's like.

Unknown:

Yeah, I mean, did you want to start this morning

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already started?

Unknown:

Yeah, sure. I mean, yeah, so I guess it's called insecure, the

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come up game, because it's very much about like, building your

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best life in LA, like, you know, being on the come up late, you

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know, all of all of that stuff. So we, funnily enough, you know,

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in that period, where we were going through a million

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different names for the company, and we had actually decided on

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one yet, even in those days, you know, we, we actually got

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talking to HBO, who have been just this incredible, incredible

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licensing partner, so we have this, you know, licensing deal

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with them for this IP. And to their credit, and especially the

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Director of Digital licensing, there will Wilson price, he very

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much cared about seeing a show like insecure, which, you know,

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for HBO represents, like, you know, a huge audience huge

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following it had an incredible six seasons. And, you know, I

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think really just representative of the people who didn't watch

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the show, you know, perhaps like yourself, Lindsay, like,

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everyone's kind of aware of it, and what it represents. And that

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for us was like, so important. I'm with huge fans of the show

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and of ESA going back before that. But yeah, you know, I

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think for for us an alternative to those were in the second

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insecure, very much represented, you know, that audience that

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we're trying to reach, it also represents the kind of story of

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like, Oh, if you create media, if you tell stories, which

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center, black and brown women like that can bring in

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everybody, I can bring in like a huge, diverse audience, because

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it's not just audiences of fella that enjoyed that show there,

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like a lot of the evangelists, but it brought in everybody. And

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that's what we're trying to replicate in the games industry.

Unknown:

But yeah,

Lindsay Poss:

my Twitter timeline was always a mess. And

Lindsay Poss:

I mean, that in a good way, like every, like, there was not a

Lindsay Poss:

everyone was talking about it, you know?

Unknown:

Yeah. And it was such a, it's a huge cultural moment,

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in a lot of ways. And so I think when we started this whole

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thing, we were kind of like, oh, like, what kind of do we make we

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kind of it yet, but we were definitely looking at more

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original stuff. And then it was kind of like the opportunity of

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a lifetime, we had shot in transit visa, from the awkward

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electoral days from her YouTube days till now, insecure was must

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see TV, obviously, we all had to stop and watch watch party on

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our own. And so the idea of being able to bring that to

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life, and to be able to bring it to life in our way, not just to

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make like, there's a lot of, you know, kind of like stories, spin

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offs, or like mobile games, or based on the show that are kind

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of like it was just caching on the show, and then kind of move

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on. And what we want to do is really create a mechanic that

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was reflecting on the show, and reflective of again, Asus

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relationship with herself as a mirror, we had this whole

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foundational idea of it being a currency, and feeling like you

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have to hype yourself up, hype up your friends in the mirror.

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And so a lot of those things went to die. But I think the

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moment that I think about the most is when we had to go meet

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Isa, and it's this. And so again, it's like this was a kind

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of a license, you don't do all of this stuff. Again, as he

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mentioned, like HBO is phenomenal partners. And they

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will act as a special thing. And like the first time we're really

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stepping out of like, your usual games category to try to make

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this work. He's like, we think you should meet Lisa, who ended

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up meeting ISA and Prentice Penny, who's the showrunner,

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flying out to LA rehearsing the pitch, you know, freaking out

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about it. And then, you know, somebody walked into the room

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with her team and was like, I gotta get we have to, we got a

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seller on this vision. And we started out this whole question

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that became kind of like the, you know, resigned to throw the

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company and a lot of ways, it's okay, what do you play games?

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And he says, like, No, I'm not really a gamer. I don't really

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play. And as we're talking, and as we're pitching the idea of

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storage, I actually, I do play this game with my friends. And

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we have this mobile game thing and whatever. And you find out

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like, yes, everybody's playing. Women in particular are playing,

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we don't see ourselves as players. So we got to, you know,

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luckily, we crushed the pitch. She was into it. Everyone was

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into it. We got the green light. And we started developmental

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projects. Yeah.

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And fast boy, and so is actually ended up as an angel investor in

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the company, which is awesome. Yeah, yeah. And so yeah, and

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now, you know, a couple years into that journey. It's still to

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come up game is available on both app stores right now in

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Early Access, iOS and Android. So yeah, it's been a real

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journey. Yes.

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That when we didn't see we didn't see global pandemic after

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we launched a new startup. That was

Lindsay Poss:

no yeah, that I think we could do a whole

Lindsay Poss:

episode on the challenges of that. And yeah, what that was

Lindsay Poss:

like? Um, can I, I want to ask a foundational question really

Lindsay Poss:

quick about why you chose mobile as opposed to hardware PC, I

Lindsay Poss:

think the accessibility is really obvious in that way. But

Lindsay Poss:

is there other reasons? Or? I don't know, I don't know exactly

Lindsay Poss:

what to say. Because Latoya, I think you did a great job of

Lindsay Poss:

saying, you know, part of it is that it reaches a lot of women

Lindsay Poss:

who don't already consider themselves gamers in the exact

Lindsay Poss:

same category. I'm not a PC or a console gamer. Totally mobile

Lindsay Poss:

gamer who, but is there? Is there things about mobile that

Lindsay Poss:

you just think, kind of you can't get an A PC or hardware

Lindsay Poss:

experience? Or? Like, what what is what is different about

Lindsay Poss:

developing a mobile game to you all, from your perspective as

Lindsay Poss:

developers? Yeah, I

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mean, firstly, it's a device that goes with you

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everywhere, right? It's pervasive, you can pull out your

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phone anywhere. So that's definitely a huge advantage,

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especially with the kind of game that we are developing where

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it's like, you know, you can play, you know, and to tell you

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a bit about the game. So it's both sort of part story driven.

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And, you know, similarly, it's in part simulation A, but then

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there's a part sort of, that's a rap rhyme. mini games, like a

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freestyle rap simulator. So another way in which Glock games

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is very different. We have a professional MC Samus, who is a

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core part of the team. But yeah, so it's one of these things

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where Oh, you're like, on this on the on the bus or whatever,

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you're like walking down the street, you could just pull out

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your phone and just start playing. So you know, I think

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that pervasiveness is a part of it. But in addition to that, it

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is kind of what we were saying about that accessibility, like

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everybody has a phone. And it's not this thing where it's like,

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oh, cool, I'm going to like, sit down and play a game on my

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console, or my, or my computer or whatever. So yeah, it's just

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that immediacy.

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Yeah, and also, on that note, on the media see, like, the other

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thing, too, I think, for developing for mobile, this is

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interesting. It's just how much our phones are, like a part of

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our integrative life in a way that your PC console. Yeah. And

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a lot of like, you might do other things with your PC, your

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console is dedicated to gaming. But like when we were doing play

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test, and like, you know, hold on hold on my mom's calling,

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like, just like this, the fact of like, Okay, how are we

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designing around these very real world, like, everything on your

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phone is trying to get your attention at all times, we're

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trying to call you things like that. So it's a very different

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way with restructuring the player experience in terms of

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how someone comes in comes out, considering all the different

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parts of your life that are.

Lindsay Poss:

Ah, that's definitely not something I

Lindsay Poss:

thought about. And, you know, I think in particular, in the

Lindsay Poss:

gaming industry, we talk a lot about screens competing with

Lindsay Poss:

each other. But you're totally, that's, that's really a

Lindsay Poss:

fascinating way of saying the screens are even competing with

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itself. Quite a bit, particularly when it comes to

Lindsay Poss:

phone. And especially so now that we've kind of talked about

Lindsay Poss:

the mobile and the game side of it. What do you think adding a

Lindsay Poss:

mobile game to a show? And as you put it out with it, and not

Lindsay Poss:

in the kind of quick buck kind of way? What do you think adding

Lindsay Poss:

that companion experience to the show does? Does for fan

Lindsay Poss:

engagement, both from the side of the HBO, who's the production

Lindsay Poss:

company who wants to see their show get engagement? And from

Lindsay Poss:

the side of the audience who's watching the show, and enjoys

Lindsay Poss:

it? Like, what does adding that portion do for the overall hype

Lindsay Poss:

surrounding the show? I

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guess? Yeah, it was, but I do want to take that from

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so yeah, a lot of, you know, the benefit for having a tie in game

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is the expansion of the world. And one of the things that we

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saw early on, even like, I think we weren't thinking about these

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kinds of things. When we first started the company, we just

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wanted to get, we weren't thinking about, like, what the

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overall huge landscape was outside of, you know, we already

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talked about terms of the you know, young girls color, being

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able to see themselves as protected. That was the goal.

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But over time, we started realizing there's a much bigger

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story so even like, why don't create as color, see their

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worlds adapted in games more. It's not like we don't have the

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franchises at this point, like Apple TV, this is our like, he's

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compelling stories about people of color, and you just don't see

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me coming out of that. And a lot of that, I think, is a lack of

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familiarity, both with the subject matter with these

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creators, and with understanding like how do you interpret like I

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said, insecure is a you know, kind of like a dramatic comedy

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at its core, where, you know, it's very funny and it's very

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like slice of life, but there's also like, really serious

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things. And people don't necessarily think oh, a game

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should adapt to this in the same way which is why it's a kind of

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our skills on a piece to say like, Okay, this is how we see a

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vision for what this could be. It's not just you trying to run

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up a score by clicking something about the good times we really

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wanted to put a lot of the world and insecure into the game ended

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up creating. So it's, you know, it was interesting from a from

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an HBO perspective, one of the things that our partner or

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fantastic partner will praise and talked about when he was

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thinking about this was just this game was such an important

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thing to this community. At the time that we were signing the

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contract But HBO insecure, was the second highest socially

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engaged show on HBO after Game of Thrones. And if you think

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about how Big Game of Thrones wasn't, like 21 Different

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countries simulcast to like this other show, which is dominated

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Sunday nights, like it's a super huge differential. And so like

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this idea that it tapped into something that was important in

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the culture, and that should be reflected in the game shouldn't

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be as radical of an idea as it is. And you know, and like I

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said, props to will for seeing and understand like, Oh, this is

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our next opportunity here. Like we have other franchises that

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might make more sense in a traditional game sense. But this

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is the one that means let's go with that. So I think that's

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those are the things that we were weighing like it's it's a

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non traditional kind of normally third party stuff, you don't

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actually go meet the creators since you always everything.

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This is definitely I think, on all sides elite club.

Lindsay Poss:

So cool. When you're thinking about the

Lindsay Poss:

audience that you're building for, and, and what that looks

Lindsay Poss:

like, Are you considering? Because there's, there's like

Lindsay Poss:

three different buckets, right? There's the people that will

Lindsay Poss:

watch the show and play the game. And then there's the

Lindsay Poss:

people that will watch the show, and then are you thinking about

Lindsay Poss:

the people that will just play the game without watching the

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show? Totally, totally. And that's kind of one of the

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things about this, this IP and working within this IP, that's

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cool. It's not like this, super, like low fills like world, like

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fantasy world filled with like things you need to know, it's

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just about living your best life and South LA and, you know,

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adulting in all of these, like themes that are very relatable

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to like anybody, and even if you haven't watched the show, so we

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definitely have a positive player base that you know,

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hasn't seen the show, that is still enjoying it, because

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ultimately, it's about building a world in which you can see

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yourself represented. And so yeah, and you're building you

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know, you're very much like, you're not playing as one of the

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characters. You're like creating yourself and your avatar and

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defining your story. So it is definitely also for people who,

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you know, haven't necessarily experienced the show.

Lindsay Poss:

So cool. Yeah, I've been I haven't downloaded

Lindsay Poss:

it yet I full transparency. But I have done a lot of like,

Lindsay Poss:

looking around. I read articles with your MC like some

Lindsay Poss:

interviews. Is MCD appropriate. Do you guys want any different

Unknown:

but I mean, my controllers absolutely not go at

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all times. Her title at Brown or government aims a non boom

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because her government Brown I think is Professor in Practice.

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She's pretty much.

Unknown:

Yeah, she's pretty much what I call her our director of rap.

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Like

Lindsay Poss:

she just does. Yeah, like, that's what we think

Lindsay Poss:

about the work she was able to do in creating the music album.

Lindsay Poss:

And I was fascinated. Cool.

Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, Micha, you want to? I mean, that was

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uncharted territory, I think even for games in terms of just

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like,

Unknown:

Yeah, it really seems like it. So yeah, please tell me more.

Unknown:

So here's the other thing, you know, what I think for

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establishing glow up, like one of the things we knew we wanted

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to do was, like, there was just so much space out there to

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invent new forms of gameplay and game mechanics that just haven't

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been explored. Because a lot of game mechanics have come, you

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know, we can get into this whole thing. But a lot of them have

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come from the same contact. So the same sort of cultural

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touchstones of touch. Yeah, and so we wanted to very much like

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explore this very kind of fertile ground for what do new

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game mechanics look like when informed by our cultural

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backgrounds. So you know, a natural place to start because

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it insecure one of the very relatable things that he says

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character does, and you know, from season one, from the first

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episode, it she will like wrap in the mirror to hype yourself

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up. So we were like, Hey, let's turn that into a mechanic like

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that would be really cool. Because the other thing you

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often see in, you know, in free to play games as kind of a space

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is, unfortunately, there's not as much kind of appetite for

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innovation in that space as you would like, right. And so

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there's often a sort of, you know, risk adverse nurse,

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there's a kind of lack of real experimentation. So one of the

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things we've also done with this is subvert the way that a lot of

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free to play mobile games kind of look and feel and play, like

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we've invented this new game mechanic was a lot of work. And

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I mean, all credit to an ongoing other members of our team as

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well, because one of the things that she has done is taken, like

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the wealth of knowledge she has as an actual rapper, and be

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like, you know, she went through this whole process, which, you

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know, she can give probably a 90 minute talk about one day where

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she had to, like, take that out of her brain and convert it to a

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mechanic like, how does she do that? How does she like, come up

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with words and how do you then make the player feel like

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someone who can freestyle rap? Yeah, so it's like, you know,

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how do you you know, I my favorite bit of feedback, we

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hear this a lot, right? So is people are like, Oh yeah, I

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can't wrap but this game is really making me feel like a

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rock.

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It's amazing when the How much do you put into this idea of

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like how the other words fit together? Because it's, it seems

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simple like as we all talk every day, we all like, Okay, this is

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going but then trying to translate that into zeros and

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one into like, a spreadsheet where values, and this happens.

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And that happens, and this happens. And then out of the

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side, you get this rhyme that makes sense. I didn't realize

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how much of a fumble that was going to be until we started

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doing it. But like, Yeah, but this whole idea of just, and

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then also, like, regional context, where we had so many

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conversations around, like, you know, sounds like if, if I wrote

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cat KNG the way the text is pronounced King, our player is

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gonna get that and the remarkable players from other

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countries are going to be Googling, like, does this come

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up with Urban Dictionary? How do we how do we spell gwap? Like,

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we just had so many of these, like, random conversations

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around? Like, how are we standardizing this in terms of

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the ways that we first would have different parts of the

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game, like there was just so much that we hadn't even

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touched? The whole concept of slant line? And understanding

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how do you actually train a player to understand these

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things, and to present it in a way where it's fun and playable,

Unknown:

and that they don't have to feel like they're an expert on that,

Unknown:

that,

Lindsay Poss:

I mean, that whole process gives so much agency to

Lindsay Poss:

an entire art form that has been long under appreciated as well.

Lindsay Poss:

So breaking it down. That's so

Unknown:

great piece on a book, or something for papers, let's

Unknown:

call the AI a rapper, and it's all about kind of like the

Unknown:

erasure of researching, again, like, you know, working with the

Unknown:

folks that I get to work with people as brilliant as Mitu and

Unknown:

Sanaz. And click that, like, it's barbed all the time. But I

Unknown:

go back and read. So I'm looking, I was like, wow, we did

Unknown:

that, like, we work together on this. Because I was like,

Unknown:

impressed. I was just reading it like, you're right. Wow, it was

Unknown:

happening. I was like, Oh, wait, that's our part. That's our

Unknown:

part, we are changing this. But in some ways is that weird, like

Unknown:

unreality? That we are actually making all of these changes in

Unknown:

the industry that, you know, again, until you like, step

Unknown:

back, I think we're very weak, day to day just trying to make

Unknown:

things work. When you step back and realize like, Oh, hey, yeah,

Unknown:

the predominant way that rap has been treated in the last, you

Unknown:

know, 20 years or so is as a commodity. And as an algorithmic

Unknown:

commodity, and Sam is, is reclaiming space, the rules of

Unknown:

the game mechanics through what we're doing. It's like, yeah,

Unknown:

there's we're always part of a bigger conversation that it's,

Unknown:

you know, easy to lose sight of that. And we're like, just

Unknown:

trying to focus on like, okay, is this is this thing going the

Unknown:

way we want it to be this thing? Like, yeah, like, I read that

Unknown:

piece, and was like, that was us that was

Lindsay Poss:

doing things. Yeah, exactly. I just had

Lindsay Poss:

someone on recently, who said to celebrate your accomplishments

Lindsay Poss:

along the way. I liked hearing that real time story about doing

Lindsay Poss:

that. Because I think it's really easy to get to get caught

Lindsay Poss:

up in keeping the lights on and fundraising and all of that. So

Lindsay Poss:

totally understand. But that was a really little nice little

Lindsay Poss:

moment to hear that you all also have been able to celebrate your

Lindsay Poss:

wins along the way a little bit. And let's talk about kind of the

Lindsay Poss:

we've skirted around this, but I want to give actual content that

Lindsay Poss:

skirted. But we talked about this, but I want to give context

Lindsay Poss:

in numbers. So about the statistics for developers in the

Lindsay Poss:

game industry. Um, so the IGDA does an annual report, the game

Lindsay Poss:

developer satisfaction report, surveys, over 800 people who

Lindsay Poss:

work as game developers, the 2021 report found that 61% of

Lindsay Poss:

respondents identified as male, which is down from 71%, and

Lindsay Poss:

2018, just a little bit of movement there. But 35%

Lindsay Poss:

identified as white and there's not a lot of movement there. And

Lindsay Poss:

there's obvious implications about some of the barriers that

Lindsay Poss:

you all might face, or people who look like you have faced to

Lindsay Poss:

actually enter the space. I found an article from Latoya,

Lindsay Poss:

which sums up diversity in games very succinctly. It's trash. I

Lindsay Poss:

thought that was a very good quote, to talk about the

Lindsay Poss:

situation. On the bus either, um, but let's I just want to

Lindsay Poss:

hear from you all, how you were able to cultivate, you know,

Lindsay Poss:

your your sense of willpower to keep going to keep pushing, how

Lindsay Poss:

you were able to balance that with all of the things that

Lindsay Poss:

you've faced along the way. very candidly, I was telling me too

Lindsay Poss:

earlier that I'm having a very difficult week. So a lot of my

Lindsay Poss:

questions have centered on mental health in this in this

Lindsay Poss:

episode, but what have you been able to do to continue To keep

Lindsay Poss:

pushing forward to continue to work or hope, or what is your

Lindsay Poss:

support system been? Like? Like, just? What has that journey been

Lindsay Poss:

like for you? Both?

Unknown:

I mean, it's certainly been a journey. I mean, here's

Unknown:

the thing we came to this already having survived in our

Unknown:

spaces, like, that's the thing you would like, even before blow

Unknown:

up, if you look at the number of folks who, you know, have sort

Unknown:

of more senior roles in like games or media, or if you look

Unknown:

at, like, how many women and yeah, women of color, especially

Unknown:

people of color, you know, in these prominent sort of decision

Unknown:

making roles and spaces, like, we got to that even before law,

Unknown:

right, so we've like, you know, I think if there's one thing

Unknown:

that we can talk a lot about and know a lot about, as women of

Unknown:

color is survival, because it's something we've been doing our

Unknown:

whole lives as a whole are is. And I think that informs us, you

Unknown:

know, that kind of keeps us as part of what keeps us going, um,

Unknown:

you know, and to come to that, and then, you know, really with

Unknown:

glow up games, we knew it was going to be tough, but it was

Unknown:

tougher, you know, for many reasons, it's been even tougher

Unknown:

than we could ever have anticipated. You know, we

Unknown:

mentioned the global pandemic, which of course, didn't help and

Unknown:

exacerbated things. But you know, it's been, it's been a

Unknown:

journey, ambulatory. And I always have a saying that we're

Unknown:

like, oh, yeah, you know, write a book one day, about, like, the

Unknown:

journey, we've had building ballgames, because there have

Unknown:

been some wild stories and, you know, potential investors and

Unknown:

fundraising meetings, people who've said some things to us

Unknown:

slash

Lindsay Poss:

write a book out 1,000%. Yeah.

Unknown:

But I think just to, you know, and I'll alternative

Unknown:

tutoria in a second. But like, I think in terms of what keeps us

Unknown:

going amidst all of that difficulty, it's because this

Unknown:

matters to us. Like, it's something that we built this

Unknown:

company, so that folks can not only see themselves, in stories

Unknown:

and on the screen, but also so there is a place for people who

Unknown:

look like us, in the industry in the space, and we can nurture

Unknown:

that talent, and we can kind of continue to build speaks, we're

Unknown:

all about that representation, both behind the scenes and on

Unknown:

the screen. And that's something that's important. And you know,

Unknown:

is kind of someone, certainly for me, as someone who's like,

Unknown:

been in the game space a long time, is something that's kind

Unknown:

of just really what keeps me going, you know, and as kind of

Unknown:

bought, the reason I do anything, it's all about, like,

Unknown:

how do we make things better for those coming after us? And how

Unknown:

do we make sure we get the space to tell, you know, to have our

Unknown:

stories told as well, because we do deserve that, you know, so?

Unknown:

Yeah, that's, that's all leave it at that. Tell him to Latoya?

Unknown:

I mean, yeah, everything that you said, times 100. And then,

Unknown:

you know, there's just, there's just layers and layers and

Unknown:

layers to why those motivation, why we want to do this. I mean,

Unknown:

there's, the obvious thing was like, Oh, you're both women,

Unknown:

like, yes, women, but also, you know, there's this other way of

Unknown:

women of color, it's that way for us as being brown skinned

Unknown:

girls, which is a whole other kind of conversation to get

Unknown:

seen, and who is normally represented. And then from

Unknown:

there, right, you know, like, Miss You, the South Asian, and

Unknown:

I'm African American, like, those are very, you don't see

Unknown:

anyone in leadership roles in that way to the point where, you

Unknown:

know, even like a lot of the heroes like just trying to find

Unknown:

like, people of color to be on our board, who can be on the

Unknown:

board of locations, that is a prominent person in the

Unknown:

industry, that is a person of color. And number is small. In

Unknown:

terms of black professionals, that number is small, small, to

Unknown:

the point where, you know, it becomes, in some ways, I think,

Unknown:

for us easy to meet our heroes, just because it's so unusual, to

Unknown:

see this thing to see someone like us making a run for it. And

Unknown:

trying. And at this point, I realized I was like, man, we've

Unknown:

been in business three years, like, you know, first woman of

Unknown:

color to run again, she did I know it was Jacqueline Beauchamp

Unknown:

did SUTA called Energize. I think her studio was an

Unknown:

operation by me for. So we might exceed that. And like, you see

Unknown:

that that's enough. This is new again, every day, we're breaking

Unknown:

ground, and we're looking at a new frontier. And that's tough,

Unknown:

right? Like we talk a lot, I think is one of the color about

Unknown:

being first in a space, and what it means to be the first to be a

Unknown:

pioneer. And the first means like you're alone, like you

Unknown:

don't have support, and that people don't really know how to

Unknown:

teach you or what to do or how to support you in the way that,

Unknown:

you know, later on down the line. They'll be able to learn

Unknown:

like, oh, well this happened with blow up. But if we don't

Unknown:

want this to happen to other studios, we got to invest more,

Unknown:

we got to do this more, but we're the ones that are like

Unknown:

pushing that out of the way. So that's, and that's tight. I

Unknown:

think the other piece of it. That speaks to what Matthew

Unknown:

saying about being going when things are brutally hard

Unknown:

startups in general, or blue Park, right, startups in

Unknown:

general, any kind of new venture is hard, right? And then gaming

Unknown:

is super hard. And on top of that, we decided we people of

Unknown:

color, very people of color. any games, which is also really

Unknown:

hard, and we made a new mechanic, which is also really

Unknown:

hard, so it's everything was just like Dark Souls games. Like

Unknown:

that's what we've been doing. And so, you know, there's a lot

Unknown:

of days where it's like, I don't know if we got like it's

Unknown:

something or like, I don't know if I have like, I don't know if

Unknown:

I keep going. And then something random will always happen. And

Unknown:

I'm like, Okay, try. Let's try again. Try again tomorrow. Like

Unknown:

I was at the nail salon. Super randomly. No real plans. I was

Unknown:

like, let me just get my nails off my nails. Removing these

Unknown:

nails off and stop in place I normally go. And this guy number

Unknown:

one, it's a man which is a black man doing manicures. And I

Unknown:

noticed he's covered Mario's tattoos. Cover and he's got

Unknown:

Nintendo here to tendo here he's got a neck tattoo but Windows

Unknown:

not five logo have like five decked Dr.

Unknown:

Michio I'm going to show you his IG after this. I looked when I

Unknown:

saw the windows 95. We were in new territory, because I was

Unknown:

like, yeah.

Unknown:

I'm like, I'm sitting here.

Unknown:

AOL screen name was because

Unknown:

yeah, what's your engineer? His name? Is Nintendo. Like his

Unknown:

online handle? Is any n 10? Do E. Nintendo? Like he is not?

Unknown:

They called him Nintendo at the nail salon. So I'm sitting here

Unknown:

and I'm like, should I ask? Let me ask, Are you a gamer?

Unknown:

Absolutely. Oh, no, I love video games. And it was my wife. And

Unknown:

he was like, Yeah, I'm a sysadmin. You know, but he was

Unknown:

like talking to this whole winding story about like, how he

Unknown:

ended up not going into the industry, because he was like,

Unknown:

Oh, I smoke too much weed and I can't be an industry anymore.

Unknown:

But he was like, but when I was doing interviews, I got like, he

Unknown:

was completely covered in tears. And he was like, I got a Windows

Unknown:

95 tattoo, because I knew of in the interview, they could see

Unknown:

that they would ask me if I did windows, and that was my

Unknown:

specialty. And that's how I would do it. And he's like, I

Unknown:

always wanted to get into games. And I didn't know how and I was

Unknown:

like

Unknown:

okay, yeah, I need to I needed to be here to share this

Unknown:

knowledge that we have learned. So I was like, if you got a

Unknown:

Windows 95 neck tattoo, my dude like, obviously, this is gonna

Unknown:

work out for you. This is going, you are dedicated. I don't. It's

Unknown:

on all your arms. We're about to bring him a copy, read his book

Unknown:

and be like, go ahead and pose with this. This this, this whole

Unknown:

situation going on right now. Yeah, but Yeah, and like, you

Unknown:

know, I was just telling him was like, oh, yeah, like Gamess QA,

Unknown:

and he said, two jobs or whatever. And there's so many

Unknown:

folks who are hungry to get in. I mean, after all players of

Unknown:

color over represent in terms of people who play and are loyal to

Unknown:

franchises, and all these different things, we just don't

Unknown:

see ourselves behind the scenes in that same way. And so what

Unknown:

ends up happening, I think, you know, it's you feel free to

Unknown:

speak to this as well, like we show up. And it's a different

Unknown:

conversation. It's a different conversation I showed up at

Unknown:

something is like the indicate horizon for students. And, you

Unknown:

know, I showed up and I was like, Oh, I'm in the wrong spot.

Unknown:

Like, everybody's like, you know, this is how I became good

Unknown:

filter on the side, like, when I was around the thing, and I was

Unknown:

like, I'm over here, like, these are students. I'm over here

Unknown:

talking about how to get capital, this is broad audience

Unknown:

blocking. Oops, and then in the chat in the discord. Somebody

Unknown:

was like, Hey, I've never seen a black owner of a game studio

Unknown:

before I feel really inspired by this. Like, I'm good. It's good

Unknown:

to see someone else like me that can do this. And I'm like, All

Unknown:

right. Well, I guess this is this is, in some ways, being

Unknown:

here is the fact. Like, it's bad. Suppose that I always think

Unknown:

I have to do more. But sometimes it's just the fact that we're

Unknown:

here. And somebody feels that they can talk to us in a

Unknown:

different way. It's the work that helps, it helps. And also,

Unknown:

I think, to shipping the game, right meant to like in terms of,

Unknown:

there was so many years of us like fighting through the

Unknown:

pandemic, fighting through funding, fighting all this other

Unknown:

stuff. It was kind of like, what are we doing, and then to see

Unknown:

the responses. That was, I think, the most gratifying,

Unknown:

because we got the hard part, right, which is building like,

Unknown:

everything else can be a mess. But at the end of the day,

Unknown:

people want to play more of this thing. And like that, that's the

Unknown:

validation.

Lindsay Poss:

I like that you said that or not like, but it's

Lindsay Poss:

so interesting that you say it's so easy to meet your heroes and

Lindsay Poss:

then how you all have been at this for three years, and I'm

Lindsay Poss:

sure you are both heroes to so many people, for what you do and

Lindsay Poss:

the feedback that you've gotten. Part of the reason why our

Lindsay Poss:

centers interview today, by the way, oh my god, they're amazing.

Lindsay Poss:

But that's the it's I certainly hope that that pool gets much

Lindsay Poss:

bigger, but it's also really neat, how much you're able to

Lindsay Poss:

inspire people just by being yourself. That's a very

Unknown:

I mean, that's not

Lindsay Poss:

like a win for not having a lot of people that look

Lindsay Poss:

like you. It is just amazing. Like, how much territory you're

Lindsay Poss:

able to cover just by being you though, that kind of. Yeah, I

Lindsay Poss:

don't know, I don't know how to phrase that any better. But

Lindsay Poss:

that's, that's quite an amazing. Yeah, I

Unknown:

mean, literally, I said it really well as well, like,

Unknown:

it's, you know, some days, all you have is the energy to show

Unknown:

up. And that's enough, right? Like, that really is just

Unknown:

existing in this space as who we are, is that act is an act of

Unknown:

resistance, an act of like, fighting, kind of, you know,

Unknown:

dominant ways that things happen. So, yeah, that's why we

Unknown:

do what

Unknown:

we do was it was one Bureau we say existence in spite.

Unknown:

And shadow, yeah, so Monday hair is the president of brass line

Unknown:

Entertainment, who are kind of our SR studio in some ways. They

Unknown:

are. They're a diverse, triple A games company. So they basically

Unknown:

make games for like, console, etc. So, yeah, we're doing

Unknown:

similar similar work and like very different spaces.

Lindsay Poss:

So I wanted to kind of end with a discussion on

Lindsay Poss:

what it's like to be a startup, and what that process has been,

Lindsay Poss:

like, we spoke a long time ago in a previous conversation about

Lindsay Poss:

building the company and the venture process. And me too, I

Lindsay Poss:

know that you've had experiences building several companies. Now

Lindsay Poss:

I read that this is your third, and you face specific

Lindsay Poss:

challenges, being who you are in the venture space and trying to

Lindsay Poss:

fundraise. I, it's wonderful to hear that you had such a good

Lindsay Poss:

partnership with HBO. But I would imagine that other parts

Lindsay Poss:

of startup being a startup and of getting funding have not been

Lindsay Poss:

as easy. Because you just walk me through what that was like

Lindsay Poss:

any advice both of you have for people who are either working at

Lindsay Poss:

startups or thinking about starting something. Yeah. Any

Lindsay Poss:

any tips? Yeah, I

Unknown:

mean, that's a big question. So, you know, so so

Unknown:

that folks know, Gallup games are has previously raised so to

Unknown:

date, we've raised 1.2 million at precede. So basically, what

Unknown:

that means is, in order to build the game, that's the money that

Unknown:

we raise in order to, in order to sort of, you know, get block

Unknown:

games started, start hiring people, because a lot of that is

Unknown:

not just about building the game, it's about building the

Unknown:

infrastructure of the studio building, like, the means to

Unknown:

then also be able to make other games going forward. So yeah,

Unknown:

it's, it's been tough, you know, fundraising, um, and, you know,

Unknown:

for for transparency as well, we're currently fundraising

Unknown:

again, for our seed round. So basically, moving on, now that

Unknown:

we're three years into the journey, we've launched one

Unknown:

game, this is kind of raising, again, the next stage to kind of

Unknown:

go bigger and keep doing what we're doing. But it's been,

Unknown:

yeah, it's been difficult. And the first time we were raising,

Unknown:

and every time we got out to fundraise, like, it takes a

Unknown:

while. It's you know, and I think the thing I'll, the way

Unknown:

I'll summarize that is that often the, you know, the bar is

Unknown:

just higher, like, that's the thing, the bar is, is often not

Unknown:

higher for us than it would be for our white male counterparts.

Unknown:

You know, that's what I will say.

Unknown:

Because, you know, it's first

Unknown:

it's like, you know, often when we first went out, try and

Unknown:

fundraise, like, we had this great IP partnership, we had,

Unknown:

like, all of this, you know, we have a team that's kind of got

Unknown:

experience, etc. You know, granted, we hadn't like work

Unknown:

together to ship a game at that point. So a lot of what we would

Unknown:

hear is like, Oh, well, you haven't shipped a game yet. You

Unknown:

haven't sort of done all this and done all that. So really,

Unknown:

you know, it took us a lot longer. And we actually ended up

Unknown:

fundraising from a lot of just amazing angels, for the most

Unknown:

part. So a lot of individuals, a lot of sort of smaller funds,

Unknown:

who really believed in us and the vision and what we're

Unknown:

building. And basically, we're on the same page as us. And I

Unknown:

think what that taught us is that it doesn't, you know,

Unknown:

sometimes it can take longer, but if you've got the right

Unknown:

people, that's what's most important, right, because you're

Unknown:

building something that they believe in that you will believe

Unknown:

in, you're on the same page. So yeah, it's it's, you know, it is

Unknown:

tough, and now we're fundraising again, and, you know, we're

Unknown:

definitely seeing a lot of this kind of similar tensions, etc.

Unknown:

It does help to have like, shipped something now as a team.

Unknown:

But I will say yeah, the bar does continue to be very high

Unknown:

for for underrepresented for marginalized folks in general,

Unknown:

but in the fundraising space, and you know, the stats,

Unknown:

definitely bear that out.

Unknown:

Yeah, and definitely in terms of, you know, just ordering from

Unknown:

a razor effectively been asked to you had two other companies

Unknown:

before this. And I remember, like, we had this moment where

Unknown:

we get our data room together. And I'm like, how do you you're

Unknown:

like, I was never asked for the stuff I had to produce this

Unknown:

level of documentation. Like, it was a lot more like what we

Unknown:

said, what? And it's these subtle little things, this

Unknown:

subtle denial of the benefit of doubt, that really characterizes

Unknown:

what when the color are facing like women, probably the women

Unknown:

are especially where we have to prove and other folks can kind

Unknown:

of just work. And I think, you know, even like a little list on

Unknown:

my counters on petty of like people who got funded before us

Unknown:

who are now out of business, right? Who got a more generous

Unknown:

package and things like that, I just read about a another

Unknown:

company where the founders take another job, and I'm part of me

Unknown:

is like,

Unknown:

can we just talk about this? Because, yes,

Unknown:

I want it, I just want to know what the thinking was here.

Unknown:

Because obviously, this didn't work. But we're still here,

Unknown:

what's going on? But it's this idea that there's this higher

Unknown:

threshold that we all have to hold ourselves to. And even with

Unknown:

results, even with the ship game, even with contracts at

Unknown:

hand, for some reason, we're still not as compelling as a

Unknown:

group of younger white guys. Yeah. And that's,

Unknown:

I think the thing I'll say is, you know, it hasn't really this

Unknown:

interesting point, and whoever brings up because we are, like,

Unknown:

resilient, like, Y'all, you know, we like, know how to keep

Unknown:

going. And it's always wild to me, like, this is what I'll say

Unknown:

to the venture funding world, which is that, that on people of

Unknown:

color, that on women of color, because we know how to survive,

Unknown:

we know how to be resilient AF, right. Like that is kind of one

Unknown:

of the things we have to do in the world. And, you know, it's

Unknown:

that's ultimately, you know, you look at all these traits of

Unknown:

successful entrepreneurs, you look at, like all of these

Unknown:

things, resilience is the thing, at the end of the day, it really

Unknown:

has that ability to sort of take those knots and keep going. So

Unknown:

yeah, you know, it's, we need to see more marginalized folks get

Unknown:

funded, like, that's what I'll

Unknown:

say. Yeah. And then also to like this, to add on to this, because

Unknown:

I think money is a big issue for women in general, broadly, but

Unknown:

also, especially for women of color. Because we are expected

Unknown:

to do so much more with less all the time, we're always gonna

Unknown:

make it work, regardless of like the level of funding that she

Unknown:

would get. And like all of these things have knock on effects.

Unknown:

And I think that wasn't as clear as it was when we're, you know,

Unknown:

in this day, even what we're raising from angels, who are

Unknown:

people who've done wonderful work in all kinds of sectors,

Unknown:

all kinds of things and check sizes smaller, because they are

Unknown:

also getting paid less than their counterparts, they have

Unknown:

less to invest in terms of like, even suffering like celebrities,

Unknown:

right, you can see with like celebrities of color, and how

Unknown:

their deals don't result in the same amount of money that it

Unknown:

would for an equivalent, like me, Viola Davis is always like,

Unknown:

I'm the black male St. Amy like her. Right. But it's like,

Unknown:

there's these things would be multitudes of different things

Unknown:

like a list black actors, which means they have less to invest,

Unknown:

and they have less to start studios with, and they have less

Unknown:

to pay with as a downstream thing. And so like, you know,

Unknown:

income inequality, investment, inequality, all of those

Unknown:

different things have to be addressed. For us to start

Unknown:

actually seeing strides being made. And we didn't realize how

Unknown:

much this is a higher system. ecosystem. One thing to say,

Unknown:

Okay, there's a management gap. There's one thing to say there's

Unknown:

a pipeline gap. But there's another thing completely to say

Unknown:

that there's an opportunity gap, there's an equity gap, there's a

Unknown:

gap. And all of those factors contribute to why you don't see

Unknown:

more studios like us.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, that makes so much sense. And yeah, that's

Lindsay Poss:

the real pipeline problem to me. Paying everyone who should be

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, the whole other thing. But yes, that is in a very observant

Lindsay Poss:

and relevant point. I want to move into our last section

Lindsay Poss:

because I'm very cognizant that we're almost running up against

Lindsay Poss:

time. Before we get into that, I'm going to do a quick summary

Lindsay Poss:

of what we talked about. We began with a discussion on

Lindsay Poss:

insecure and the audience represented and helpless themes

Lindsay Poss:

wanted to reflect the mechanics and nations of the show. It's

Lindsay Poss:

not a quick buck collaboration, it's an intentional partnership

Lindsay Poss:

to create something for an audience that should be

Lindsay Poss:

interested in and engaged with the kind of content that

Lindsay Poss:

insecure without as well as people who don't. But we won't

Lindsay Poss:

talk about that. The game is part story driven part

Lindsay Poss:

simulator. It has many great games that incorporate a very

Lindsay Poss:

original mechanic of rap and created music, kind of stylings

Lindsay Poss:

and creations on the part of the audience. The reason why you

Lindsay Poss:

will let with a mobile game among accessibility and many

Lindsay Poss:

other reasons, it was with the phone being an integrated part

Lindsay Poss:

of life. The player experience is actually competing with

Lindsay Poss:

itself for screen time. But mobile games allow for the

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expansion of the world of the show, especially for creators of

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color. And there's lack of experimentation in free to play

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games, so it's important to invent new You begin new game

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mechanics, particularly since the same person, people have

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been building games for a long time. So mobile games represent

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a lot of room renovation, a lot of room for accessibility, and

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an integrated part of our lives. What keeps you all going despite

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the numerous and very unfortunate and sad barriers

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slash situations you're up against, is people seeing

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themselves in stories and on screen matters representation

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behind the scenes and on the screen matters. That becomes

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easy to meet your heroes as well as limited, which is very

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unfortunate. So it becomes easy for you to become the heroes and

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inspire the kind of the next generation which hopefully has a

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much wider pool of folks being first has its own challenges,

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you're learning, you don't necessarily have the same

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support that an established industry would have. But some

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days, it's okay to just have the energy to show up. Because

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that's more than enough. being who you are, is an act of

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fighting and an act of resistance in the space. That is

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helpful to inspire other folks who look like you. The bar when

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it comes to fundraising, we ended with a little discussion

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on startups and how the bar is higher for women and people of

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color to raise money. You all wound up fundraising for people

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who believed in the vision which did take longer, but wound up

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being worth it just because they really understand what you're

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going for. So it takes resilience, it takes time. But

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try to stick with it. And women and people of color have

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resilience in spades. So more of those folks should get funded

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because they have the fight that this survival instincts to keep

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going to go for it to build. Women are expected to do so much

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more with less. And people of color have the same expectation.

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And this has knock on effects from downstream upstream all the

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way through. So I know that you, Latoya give this specific

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example of black and brown angel investors who have less to

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invest, which means that there's less to move downstream, which

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means that you are having to do less with less resources and

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then employ that it just winds up being like a whole pattern.

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So addressing that, that stream problem and the income

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inequality found at the different levels is something

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that's really going to allow for bigger strides to be made. And

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that comes from not just going to the end product that comes

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this starts all the way back in the venture and funding space.

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And in a lot of other spaces. For sure. So with that being

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said, I like to end each podcast with the same segment. And it's

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called a moment of reflection, just a chance for you to give

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any advice to people who may just be starting their career or

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looking to switch their career or whatever it may be. But what

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is one thing you would like to tell your younger self about

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getting into the game industry and being successful? I think it

Unknown:

really is about, you know, it's okay to be yourself

Unknown:

and to show up. Because that your community is out there. And

Unknown:

it's important to find them.

Unknown:

So that's what I would say.

Unknown:

It really is about like, the networks you build of folks who

Unknown:

can support you and who, you know, have this kind of shared

Unknown:

mission and vision and you know, that we're creating a sort of,

Unknown:

you know, a studio that reflects that. That is kind of trying to

Unknown:

push that forward and make it easier.

Unknown:

Yeah, so I think for me, I was talking to a friend recently

Unknown:

who's thinking about returning to the games industry after

Unknown:

leaving a decade ago, and like going back and forth about like,

Unknown:

all the issues, and you know, all the stress and all the

Unknown:

problems and like, why, why? Why did you do this? Why did you

Unknown:

want to do this? You know, well, here's the deal. It's been hard.

Unknown:

It's been brutal. It's definitely taken a lot more than

Unknown:

I thought I had, in terms of making this work. But I don't

Unknown:

regret taking the shot. Like, regardless of what happened,

Unknown:

this wasn't just a dream kept talking about at brunch. The

Unknown:

thing that we actually did guard was at this point of how it

Unknown:

works out. We took the shot, we did a whole bunch of things that

Unknown:

I think we never thought possible, just by participating

Unknown:

by saying, Okay, we're gonna step up and do this. It was just

Unknown:

not Firstly, it didn't come together we wanted it to and so

Unknown:

that I think that was the biggest thing that I think

Unknown:

surprised me about the conversation. Because we're, you

Unknown:

know, we're talking about it and he was like, you know, go back I

Unknown:

was gonna go back could go back and you know, have a nice cushy

Unknown:

job and not be broke anymore and be really great. But, you know,

Unknown:

at the end of the day, we're doing the thing, and there

Unknown:

aren't that many opportunities in your life. Just go do the

Unknown:

thing. And what however it pans out, there's no regrets. Tried

Unknown:

to get it. There's nothing at the end of this. I think we have

Unknown:

left everything on the floor. So this isn't the best. Whatever it

Unknown:

was, this was the best we could do. That's so great,

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though. Thank you both so much for coming on. This

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has been just really really wonderful conversation. Everyone

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should go on their phones right now and download insecure the

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come up game. Where else can people find you follow you

Lindsay Poss:

Follow games find your work to keep up with what low games is

Lindsay Poss:

doing.

Unknown:

Well, so we're at what games on most social platforms

Unknown:

go up that games on Instagram blog games on Twitter. You know,

Unknown:

Mateos at machi gay. I'm at Latoya Peterson if you want to

Unknown:

talk to us individually, and you know, we're easy to find. We're

Unknown:

always around.

Lindsay Poss:

Hey, thank you so, so much. For all of our

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listeners. Be sure to leave the five star ratings and reviews.

Lindsay Poss:

You've heard me give this speech a million times. Check out other

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holodeck media podcasts including meta business and

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business of esports. I'm on Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn,

Lindsay Poss:

Lindsey poss and you can catch me once a night on the business

Lindsay Poss:

esports live after show in cash this podcasts in your feed every

Lindsay Poss:

week. We'll see you next week. Thanks for joining

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us here on meta woman. Make sure to subscribe to this

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podcast everywhere you get your podcasts, leave a five star

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review and tell your friends, family and colleagues all about

Unknown:

us. Also, make sure to follow metta TV on all socials to get

Unknown:

more of the best Metaverse content anywhere. Tune in every

Unknown:

week for another episode of meadow woman

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About the Podcast

META Woman
Weekly metaverse content - for women, by women
Meta Woman will focus on addressing the issues, opportunities, and challenges facing women in the development of the Metaverse. Top female executives and business people operating within the gaming and crypto industries bring a wide range of perspectives through regular guest appearances.