Episode 34

full
Published on:

19th Jul 2022

34. Dolly Parton Hits

Katya Dolgova, Chief Operating Officer and Co-Founder of Redhill Games, a game developer based in Helsinki, Finland is on the podcast this week! In a fun nod to Dolly Parton (intentional or unintentional), Katya's team just put out their first game, an FPS called Nine to Five. We talk about the startup environment vs. larger publishers, what is missing in the digital economy, and why it's fun to build a shooter game.

Episode Resources:

https://www.redhillgames.com/

https://www.ninetofive.game/

https://www.theesa.com/resource/2021-essential-facts-about-the-video-game-industry/

Transcript
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Welcome to the meadow woman podcast. We address the

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issues, opportunities and challenges facing women in the

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development of the metaverse the biggest revolution since the

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internet itself. Every week we bring you conversations with top

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female talent and business executives operating in the

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gaming and crypto industries. Here's your host Lindsey, the

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boss poss the metal woman podcast starts now.

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Hello, and welcome to the metal woman podcast part of the

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holodeck media Podcast Network. I'm your host, Lindsay the path

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path from Charlotte to success recovering it all returning

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listeners, thank you so much for supporting the show. And for all

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the new listeners out there. Welcome. I hope you enjoy. One

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of my favorite things about doing the show. And I mean, this

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truly is talking to people from all around the world. And I've

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been lucky enough to have some international guests, always

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looking for more. So if there's folks you want to see, feel free

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to send them my way. I'm so excited to introduce today's

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guest all the way from the cozia. Cyprus. I will heartily

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admit that I have not spoken with many people from Cyprus, if

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at all. So I'm very excited to introduce a Katya del Cova, who

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is the Chief Operating Officer and co founder of Red Hill games

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to the game developer based in Helsinki, Finland, although she

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hails from Cyprus redheal games release its FPS nine to five,

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May of 2022. So very recently, and I'm very excited to hear

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about how the process how that process went what it was like.

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So Katya, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you.

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Thank you, Lindsay. Happy to be here. Can you please introduce

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yourself and give the audience a bit of your backstory?

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Yes, just in a few words, not to bore anybody to death with my

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with my life. So I'm Katya. Right now I'm co founder and

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chief operating officer of retro games. And as Lindsay said, we

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are working on the FPS game. For now we have one live game, which

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is 95, which is available on Steam and stadia if you want to

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buy it feel free. Otherwise, we decided that you want to work on

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different shooting games and sell we have several r&d

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projects in the work as well. But nothing is announced. So

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unfortunately, we cannot share a lot of details here.

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How did you wind up with a game to co founding a game

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development studio that started in Finland while being in

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Cyprus. I'm going to ask you about

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the power of or internet I guess and online remote work. Together

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with France, we decided that we want to set up our own company.

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And so there are four co founders, two of our science

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staffers, two of our co founders are in Finland. So from the very

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beginning, we had two offices. One is in Helsinki, we just have

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water that's inland and one in Cyprus. But then Cypress will

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have a small operation.

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Gotcha. Okay, so we're gonna start off by talking about your

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role at Red Hill. And a past conversation, we talked about

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how you do many of the things that aren't related to actual

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game development from partnerships, illegal to

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operations, marketing, game testing, user acquisition, the

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wide world that is not game development. But I want to just

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start right away and talk about how non software development

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folks can get involved in gaming. So can you tell me what

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your past experience was? How you got to founding Red Hill,

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and how your you've been able to use what you previously did in

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games and game development?

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Well, first of all, before starting our own gaming company,

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I've been working for another gaming company, so I wasn't

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completely stranger to the gaming industry. Although before

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that I was working in the finite financial industry and in, in

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software in it. So it was somewhat related to dealing with

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different developers, programmers, and so all these

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creative professionals who need special attention, and so

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require a lot of creative environments around them. So

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from that perspective, I wouldn't say that everything I'm

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dealing with is not exactly game development. So the main purpose

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of activations is to enable game developers to develop the game.

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So we are supporting them on the backgrounds with whatever

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activities I needed, either bringing extra resources from

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external providers, or working with communities or you know,

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looking for for the audience to introduce the game to so we are

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part of the development process as well. Although not writing

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the code or creating beautiful art and not designing anything,

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although of course, like everybody has ideas, what is the

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best game and so how you need to make it and in turn So far

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people getting into the gaming industry, I think like the main

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prerequisite is, you need to love games. And then the gaming

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industry is so diverse and so many different fields and

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professions are needed here. So be it like finance, be legal,

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Community Marketing, this intelligence, all of that is now

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required in the game. So it's not only programmers, and not

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only designers who are making games. So whatever you like,

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Whatever you do, believing in general, it can be connected to

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the games, you feel like the industry, and you want to be

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part of

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that makes sense. I there? I definitely feel and this leads

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perfectly into the second question, because I'm going to

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push back just a little bit, because I've met tons of people

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who are passionate about games. And you're right, that is

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definitely the first step. For sure. I've also met tons of

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people who are passionate and kind of don't know where to

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begin. So if you're starting from a place of passion, and

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you're a non technical person, do you have any recommendations

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for the best skill to learn? Or the best educational path? Or

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from your point of view? Is it like, oh, the gaming industry

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really, really needs more HR professionals, or the gaming

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industry really, really needs more people who work on their

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legal team? So go to law school, like, is there? Is there

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anything you feel that there's kind of a real shortage of? Or

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if you were a young person who was just really passionate about

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games? Where would you start?

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That's a good question. If we're looking at the shortage of some

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roles, right now, I would probably mean business

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intelligence, and data, data engineering. Those are in high

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demand. And if you're good at statistics thing, you know,

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being able to write scripts and work also, with developers to

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answer ask and answer the right questions, you will be in demand

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for sure. And some, another one is digital marketing as well.

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Because these days, all of the companies are working with

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communities, they're promoting the content to the end users.

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And they are involving communities also into design and

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into testing. Which means that if you know how to operate in

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the digital world, and be the best representor of what your

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company is doing, and what your game is about to say and bring

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to the to the people, then those skills are also in high demand.

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And otherwise, I would really say that, wherever you are,

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whatever you learn, there is still a way to apply those

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skills. It's not that of course, like every single doctor will

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find themselves stuck in the gaming industry. But there are

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also games, which are for the medical professionals to test

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the comments and to play, and then discuss and, you know, be

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blown away about that. So do not wait and see. If it is I don't

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know, like finance or legal. There are always opportunities

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for those two, it's probably a little harder to get into the

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industry. If you already built up your career, like 30 years in

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the profession, then changing the industry completely,

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potentially you need to step down and go into the entry

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level, if any special skills required, if not, some skills

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are transferable. So if I would be looking for example, for a

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financial controller is of course you read they have

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understanding what gaming industries, but what is more

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important that they know finance, right? And they can you

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know create the Bucha cash flow and you know, afterwards they

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define the logic. If they don't know how to do that than if they

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weren't gamers doesn't go to hell is not going to help them.

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That makes sense. Yes. If you're looking for financial,

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financial, what did you say Comptroller,

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Financial Controller accountant strive to be like, any rate,

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which is not directly involved into the game development.

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Right? Yeah. So if you're looking to get, I guess what I'm

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taking from this is if you're looking to get kind of directly

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involved into game development, and you're a non technical

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person, then considering business intelligence and

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digital media are good points. Of course, there's more. There's

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other ones. Yeah,

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those are in high demand for sure. Production roles, like

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project management are also transferable skills. If you go

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somewhere and you want to go into gaming, that's definitely

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going to help you and always getting involved into the gaming

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communities. Any game you like to play, there are communities

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and you can start building up your involvement from from this

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angle

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as well. That makes sense and then otherwise special. Less

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roles, or experience you may already have, you're looking to

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transfer. So that makes sense. I have a lot of friends who are

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trying to kind of break in and unsure where to start. So I

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think that those are two very good piece of advice. I want to

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shift the discussion a little bit and actually talk about what

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it's been like to develop an FPS has Redhill just fully launched

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in May. And that is so exciting. There's definitely a stereotype

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that FPS games are developed and targeted largely towards men,

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and that men are the only ones who play FPS. But we know more

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and more that that's not true. I've I debated introducing some

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of the facts on this show about that. But I have read facts

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about shooter games several times in the past. So I will not

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bore listeners. But please, if you don't know any facts about

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shooter games, just go ahead and Google it really quick. I highly

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recommend ESS annual report as a good quick breakdown of

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demographics and games in general. We do know, however,

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that many developers are men. So can you talk to me about your

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development process? How you incorporated women into the

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development and built a game for everyone? And was there any kind

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of different approach you took in game creation? To make it

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more inclusive? Or do you I guess, let me rephrase the

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question. i You have mentioned previously that you worked with

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a lot of of women developers on your team that there are quite a

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number. Do you believe that in just having women developers on

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the team, that you are inherently able to make the game

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more inclusive just because it's more voices at the table? More

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people working on the project? Or did you feel that you also

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had to put inclusion kind of as a goal? It may be a mix of

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those, but I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on that.

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Right. So

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let me take a few steps back so I can I can cover this topic in

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full. So first of all, in terms of bringing female developers

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into the table, we started a company already, like three male

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co founders, and one female co founders. So like we brought up

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diversity, agenda, diversity, you know, from the very

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beginning. As well, we are all different nationalities. So we

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all came from different backgrounds. And that adds also

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to the diversity and inclusion attracts rescue in general, our

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main inclusion and diversity comes from the National

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diversity, because we are recruiting all over the world.

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And in the company, right now, we have 25 different

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nationalities coming from different countries. So we have

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about 22 different languages we speak. And so all those

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different cultural, you know, specifics, doing the Lord's to

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be able to create a good game, because the game is for everyone

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in the world, therefore, like perspective for every single

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individual is kind of taken into account. In terms of the female

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developers, and the general statistics. I unfortunately,

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cannot argue that because FPS, shooting games in general, I

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still predominantly play by male players, statistics, I think

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that's about 30% of the players are female. Whatever, of course,

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depends on which particular game, you know, the numbers

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vary. In terms of our personal player, base, it's more male,

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because at least at the beginning, it was pretty

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hardcore. So females did try and some of them speak and some of

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them decided that it's too hard, or to be, you know, too active

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for them. So we had about probably 10% of our player base,

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who are female. And so usually, those female players are very

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vocal. So the members of the discord communities, they're

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talking, they're making suggestions. They're actively

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taking part in whatever tests and events you announced. So

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they are usually white dude in cooperating with the developers,

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male players, because it just didn't number them bigger

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number. Of course, they also do that. But if you compare the

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percentages, which match everybody from the female player

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community who play the Alto as well, so therefore, their voice

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is usually heard much more than the other genders. In terms of

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the developers as such, again, you know, we are mainly male

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male dominated company, again, for the obvious reasons,

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although we do have senior senior developers who are

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female, for example, UX designer, we had senior

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animator, we have video art artist and 2d art Just as well,

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for our representatives, also a different points of view, and

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what we believe and all our male colleagues agree, whenever you

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have a different mixture of genders in the team, that helps

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you having the different perspective. Because otherwise,

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it is pretty like, you know, streams and some, it's hard to

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consider things from different angles, and it's having

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different genders in the team kind of minimizes this issue. I

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would definitely want to have more female programmers. Not

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that many exist in the world, in the gaming communities. So we

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have discuss, though, with the colleagues as well, how can we

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change it in general, and we think that probably we need to

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start really, really early at schools, explaining kids at

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school, what is good about like being a programmer, and

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encouraging girls to join programming profession, then we

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will definitely have a bigger pool of candidates to choose

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from. Because the raw studios who only have females, for

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example, such studios exist. But they're not doing shooters, they

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are usually doing like design games, or some fashion games or

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something for the children. But of course, like there is still

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an opportunity to bring them along and incorporating into our

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world. So absolutely, there is a need for that. And supplements

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will benefit a lot if they have females in their group.

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I want to plug a different episode really quick, just

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because I recently interviewed Dr. Jacqueline Thomas of Girls

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Pursuing Science. And we almost exclusively talked about getting

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girls into more science based professions and starting young

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and all that. So I totally agree with you. When it comes to

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starting them young, and I confessed her and I'll confess

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to you, too, that I was also a failed science major in in

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school, I had a very active interest in science and I wound

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up leaving and women unfortunately leave at a much

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higher rate, just something I found out much later on. But I

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just didn't have the confidence as an 18 year old to stick it

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out. And I wish I would have. So I completely agree with you that

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starts early on, it definitely starts with education. Would you

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say that being in this? I think that there's an obvious answer

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to this question. So I'm not expecting anything crazy. But

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I'm assuming because you're able to bring in so many different

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folks in so many different nationalities that you are a

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largely remote company. We're not, you're not Wow, all these

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people are in our in real life. Yeah,

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they're in Helsinki, and they are in Cyprus, and, in general,

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we don't mind remote work. In Japan, as a concept, we started

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the company office based, then we had COVID, and we'll learn

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how to work remotely. And some people work remotely every now

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and then. So we're not policing them, you know, being physically

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in the office on a daily basis. But for the smaller company,

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it's much easier to interact when you have space and life

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quantum is much faster, it's more efficient, that discuss

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ideas, you know, and they push a machine and then go to your

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workstation and implemented straightaway. So going forward,

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when we grow potentially we will be more remote than we are now.

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But at the moment majority of the employees

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so then how what were your recruiting practices like to get

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so many people from different nationalities, especially with

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being in an office? Oh, well, we

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attracted them. So like feelings is a good place to leave very

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family friendly, you know, good environment. So good ecology,

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you know, good government doing a lot, a lot of things so for

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for the population. And so also the Finnish government is pretty

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good in supporting it industry and games in particular.

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Therefore, it's pretty easy to attract people to validate and

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start building their life or in a new country. And also some

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people like when it's dark and cold, and every now and then a

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little bit of stamina light now, and some other people prefer to

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have, you know, cold weather and the close proximity of the sea,

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and therefore we have Cyprus for that. But when you just start

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the company, you're pretty much attracting people by the names

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of the core team who is already there, and the attractiveness of

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the work you can offer. Because of course, like developers are

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not just you know, changing the life environment right you know,

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a few weeks Yes, but in general, it's more important what you're

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going to work for. And what game are you creating and see? If you

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can, you know, picture what the game is going to be what your

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role is there, what's your personal contribution? For many

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people, it's attractive, and they give it a try, and they

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move across the pond.

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Very cool. Well, that that's unexpected, but very neat. I

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want to we're gonna broaden this a little and still talk about

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work environments. But we also had previous conversations about

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the tech industry at large. And my own experience, which I've

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shared, the most frustrating part is getting stuck at a

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certain position. So I think that we've had the great

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recession, and we've had people leaving their jobs. You know,

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that's been, or the great resignation rather, I know,

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that's been a US trend for sure. And one of the number one

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reasons here for people leaving their jobs is lack of upward

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mobility, you get to certain point, and that's the point

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you're at, and there's there's no going beyond that. So as a

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company that has gone put all this effort into recruiting

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diverse talent and having them move to Finland or Cyprus, um,

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how are you thinking about that next stage of providing paths

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upwards so that people don't feel stuck? Actually stay where

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they are getting new opportunities, constantly

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learning and thinking? What's, what's your approach to that?

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Well, in general,

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I would say like, you know, friends, Billy's as guilty as

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any other gaming companies, because of course, like, we have

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so many senior positions and leading positions, as we have,

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and some people leave, they have aspirations to become the next

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to their most likely need to be their own company, potentially,

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maybe the will, the opportunity with us

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was a little different. I'll give him that one.

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Right. But in general, we do have career progression plans.

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And last year, we hired a dedicated person who is dealing

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specifically with working with leads and with employees to make

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sure they know where they want to go. Because also there are

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two different paths. Some people want to become people managers.

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And these are certain skills you need to learn in addition to

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your personal profession, and some people want to become

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experts. And then that's more technical, and they just need to

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make sure that they grow professionally as much. And

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there should be a good interaction in between. And

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some, of course, like not every personal wish can be fulfilled

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in a small company. But, of course, like we're trying that,

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when we started the company, we had to hire seniors, because you

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you have like 1020 people, and you expect it to create

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something which comparable to AAA. So people have to wear many

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hats, and therefore they have to be very productive in what they

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are doing. So unfortunately, it's not usually the level of

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the juniors or interns or even mid level employees. But even in

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the first year, we already started the internship program.

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So we brought very, very junior early in career people and

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started teaching them and developing them inside. And they

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grew with us. And they got promoted several times, and then

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decided in the likeness path of law. So sometimes the best way

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to get promotion is to leave unfortunately, and it's not

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gaming industry specific. That would be any industry. In fact,

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unfortunately. But of course, like for bigger companies, there

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is more opportunities to have several projects in parallel.

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Much, we're also considering that they're having several

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projects that are being developed. So people can move

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around and take different roles on different projects. And it

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doesn't mean it's 100% Guaranteed. But there would be

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opportunities start over time, doesn't mean that you join us

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today as like senior programmer, and you will become a principal

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program or lead programmer in the year, you may eat, right, or

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you may become a people lead on a new project, if that's the

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interest you have. And you want to develop into this into this

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direction.

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That makes sense. And we're talking about kind of big

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studios versus small studios. I wondering if you have any

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thoughts on startup versus indie publisher versus triple A

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studio? So I guess so you have experienced definitely with the

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startup studio, and I didn't you mentioned up previously worked

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in games, we didn't dive into that too much. So I'd be happy

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to learn more about what that was. But if you were on the job

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market right now, is there one where you think there is more

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growth opportunity? Or a better work environment in general?

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Like, if you would you step back with the experience you've had

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in the games industry, which of those is kind of the most

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attractive and why.

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And this point in time, I would say, I would probably go again,

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to a startup or maybe, you know, to similar dark top myself with

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some friends, because obviously, I don't have all the skills and

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I would need complementary skills. The main reason for that

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is, when you work in a smaller environment, first of all, we

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have more responsibilities, if you're interested in that, you

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can do more things. And it's good and bad in wearing

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different hats. But, you know, never in the past, I was, you

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know, doing user acquisition or marketing, right. And now I have

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this opportunity to learn that also for myself, if I would have

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been working in a big company like before, it would most

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likely be in one discipline, you can, of course, make an

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initiative and do something like just in disciplines, but most

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likely, it still will be, you know, directed, quite handily,

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within the p&l, corporate rules. So from their perspective, for

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me personally, working in a smaller team, makes you more in

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control gives you more responsibilities, more

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opportunities. And also you can try different things. So right

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now, for me, that would be the choice.

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This is a distinction I hadn't thought about before, because I

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am definitely a person who likes to have several projects going

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at once. And so it's interesting to hear, you know, the larger

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you go, the more kind of single singular your focus becomes. I

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think that's a really astute observation. And especially as

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someone who doesn't prefer to have a singular area of

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expertise, that's something that I'll definitely carry forward.

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I've definitely gotten pigeon holed, I guess is the word in

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the past. And it's a little bit harder to be creative, when

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you're only looking at one one area. So I, that's a great piece

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of wisdom for folks out there. And that being said, there's

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plenty of people out there who have one area of expertise that

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they love, they're super passionate about and can spend

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40 hours a week on, and maybe that it's worth going to a

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bigger, bigger place where you just have the one thing that you

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do and you love it. Well,

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those roles also available in smaller companies and like, like

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powers, and if you like to be an animator and you only like to

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animate hands, you will still have a chance to do that. And

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you can do it all your life. Right. But if you want to do

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more, then of course, in the small environment, you will have

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more opportunity to try new things, sometimes out of

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necessity that the company can get, you know, as many people,

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but that could be an issue a choice, if you want to do that.

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And you should just be your manager to your to your lead

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like let me try. Most likely they will agree.

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Where did this hand Development Development example coming?

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Because that feels very specific.

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Well, you know, we have to rating the first person shooter,

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right.

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Hands were really hard to animate. That's funny. Um, can

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we talk a little bit and again, we talked about this when we met

Unknown:

up before the difference in approach to the Western and

Unknown:

American environment versus where you are when it comes to

Unknown:

the Nordics and, and Europe in general. What are kind of the

Unknown:

differences you see in game development companies?

Unknown:

similarities? Yep, just comparison would love to get

Unknown:

your thoughts? Right. Um, well,

Unknown:

first of all, I don't have my personal hands on experience

Unknown:

with American game developers. Game Development per se. Of

Unknown:

course, I know plenty of people who are working in different

Unknown:

gaming companies than my previous company. We have

Unknown:

offices in the States as well. But so my main knowledge comes

Unknown:

from the discussions that are from what we read the in booths

Unknown:

and social media. And first of all, I would like to say that

Unknown:

American gaming industry seems to be like more developed,

Unknown:

developed and have a greater history than European one if not

Unknown:

more specific, but, like gaming started, not in Europe, and

Unknown:

therefore, like, the most experienced professionals are

Unknown:

coming from the US. And some most of the educational programs

Unknown:

are also developed in the US. And we are looking up at them

Unknown:

all the time. And all the all the great games we work we

Unknown:

played when we were children, in most of the cases are coming

Unknown:

from the US as well. So we'll learn from them. Otherwise,

Unknown:

European and specifically more the gaming industry, they are

Unknown:

much more focused on like work life balance, and that people

Unknown:

have like good environment, or not all working. And it's, you

Unknown:

know, having a good time while working. And you hear a lot

Unknown:

that, you know, in the States, there are lots of branches and

Unknown:

branch and branch. And afterwards, people, you know,

Unknown:

just want to leave and have a little bit of life, or sometimes

Unknown:

they have to jump into the new project as well. So in Europe,

Unknown:

it's much more regulated towards the employees, again, not

Unknown:

specifically gaming industry, but in general labor law is

Unknown:

dictating that. So we're our employees have very different

Unknown:

experience from that perspective. I'm not saying we

Unknown:

never have branches we do, of course, if there is a deadline,

Unknown:

which needs to demand, would you ask our people to put extra

Unknown:

effort, but we cannot mandate will always agree, we have to

Unknown:

notify them in advance, and we have to compensate with money or

Unknown:

time off. And it also cannot last forever, it has to have a

Unknown:

limit on that. And that's also one of the benefits which we

Unknown:

usually offer to the American developers, if they want to try

Unknown:

and sound you know, relocate and work for the European company,

Unknown:

you will have a lot of vacation, and Santa like paid time off,

Unknown:

you will use that at least five, six weeks, during the year you

Unknown:

can use then all the public holidays, all the extra time you

Unknown:

worked. And then you can compensate as well. Huge health

Unknown:

systems in Europe as well, can not be underrated. That's also

Unknown:

another benefits which all employees in European and

Unknown:

Nordics have, and they of course, like use it. So all your

Unknown:

background is supported and covered. So you can focus your

Unknown:

productive time on making, you know, new games. So from that

Unknown:

perspective, I guess that probably few things which are

Unknown:

different. But still, were looking at the American

Unknown:

developers and American conferences and everything. And

Unknown:

we want to incorporate this experience into what we do as

Unknown:

well.

Unknown:

The environment certainly is different. I will absolutely

Unknown:

give you that. Have you? Have you found that some of the

Unknown:

folks? I mean, I know you said you're recruiting people from

Unknown:

all over the world. Have you found any? Like, is there any

Unknown:

special kind of excitement from American developers to jump ship

Unknown:

and move to Europe at all? I this is I'm purely just curious,

Unknown:

because obviously, we've seen a lot of news about American game

Unknown:

publishers lately, and most of it has been negative. So I'm

Unknown:

wondering if a lot of developers are thinking, Oh, time to try

Unknown:

something new. And if you've been able to kind of capitalize

Unknown:

on that a little bit,

Unknown:

always hope but of course, like, well, people are still having

Unknown:

opportunities in the same country, they first consider

Unknown:

them because it's obviously you know, more familiar, and doesn't

Unknown:

require you to change the entire life. The younger people tend to

Unknown:

be more interested. But if you have family with several kids,

Unknown:

house mortgage, whatnot, then you will think twice, unless

Unknown:

it's not a remote. If it is remote opportunity, you can of

Unknown:

course, jump on it right away. If you need to go then you know,

Unknown:

more things are taken into consideration. So of course, we

Unknown:

try to extract those who seem to be available because of

Unknown:

something happening with the company. So far, I don't have

Unknown:

too many Americans working for us. We have two out of 70. So

Unknown:

they are coming from from the States. But in general by going

Unknown:

forward if we need to grow if you will be attracting

Unknown:

developers from the States, then maybe we were also talking about

Unknown:

remote engagement. We didn't consider that in the past

Unknown:

because we were very office base. But going forward,

Unknown:

obviously the world is changing and all the development is

Unknown:

changing.

Unknown:

Yes, I I will say I was a little shocked when you said that you

Unknown:

all go into an office. I bet that totally took me aback for a

Unknown:

second like Wait. People do that still. Yes. That's not That's

Unknown:

not a bad thing. It, it is completely team dependent. I'm

Unknown:

just so used to everyone moving in the opposite direction, and

Unknown:

I'm fully at home. And so I, I totally forget that other people

Unknown:

have different experiences. I want to talk also just about the

Unknown:

startup environment, because we haven't. We've talked a lot

Unknown:

about working at a small game developer, and we've thrown

Unknown:

around the word startup. And you've mentioned the story of

Unknown:

how you got it started. But what has it been like to actually

Unknown:

build a game development company from the ground up?

Unknown:

Well, probably the best comparison would be, then you

Unknown:

were building the bicycle when you write it the same time. So

Unknown:

that's pretty much what we've been doing in the past four

Unknown:

years. And there are like pluses and minuses like in everything,

Unknown:

and you have big ambitions, you want to create the best company.

Unknown:

And of course, the company wants to be the best game ever,

Unknown:

everybody's going to be playing and loving. You learn on the

Unknown:

way. And it's also like, sometimes you need to make

Unknown:

choices, which students make if you're part of the company, and

Unknown:

like well funded, then you don't need to decide, would I hire? I

Unknown:

don't know, again, I mean, nature? Or rather, I shall bring

Unknown:

develop a programmer? Or do I need some, I don't know, the

Unknown:

character artist, or environmental artist is more

Unknown:

important at this point in time. So you have to juggle things all

Unknown:

the time and make decisions on the spot. So that's probably the

Unknown:

biggest, the biggest challenge in the working in the startup,

Unknown:

which not yet earning the money from the game

Unknown:

if paid. Is there anything in particular that you wish you

Unknown:

would have known when you started? And I don't necessarily

Unknown:

mean any regrets, but it's like, Oh, if we just knew this thing,

Unknown:

it would have made our process easier? Or if we just had this

Unknown:

tool or, like, is there is can you think of any instances where

Unknown:

it really was? This one thing would have put a lot of other

Unknown:

things to rest? Huh? Well, for

Unknown:

me, for me, personally, I guess we should have brought the

Unknown:

person who is dedicating time to marketing earlier wrong. That's

Unknown:

in my team. And I was always thinking that, you know, before

Unknown:

the game is ready, and then we'll really start promoting it.

Unknown:

We can do bits and pieces ourselves, like always had

Unknown:

community people who, because we had community from the early

Unknown:

testing, we didn't have a dedicated marketing manager, for

Unknown:

example, that could have been different. So in analyzing the

Unknown:

audience and making sure that, for example, the characters are

Unknown:

much relative to the particular audience that we believe the

Unknown:

game is for. No, that was not in place. And I think, you know, if

Unknown:

I think back, I should have probably hired the dedicated

Unknown:

marketing person earlier. Again, you know, that's the choice, you

Unknown:

decide, bring it on, you do that or not? Now, I think I should

Unknown:

have done it earlier.

Unknown:

Well, another thing, you'd never be 100% on, on all the

Unknown:

decisions. So yeah, and what's the other thing

Unknown:

and another thing is that, when creating a new game, in the new

Unknown:

company, we thought that it would be good if the game will

Unknown:

be very different. Right? Of course, like people have so many

Unknown:

different shooters on the market, they can, you know,

Unknown:

choose whatever, and they are in general, continuing similar

Unknown:

path. So we introduced a little too many new things into design.

Unknown:

And, again, looking back, potentially, we should have

Unknown:

looked more into the industry, like the hands of the industry

Unknown:

in that sense, and be a little closer to them. Because

Unknown:

sometimes completely new things, meeting people off as well,

Unknown:

before they're becoming familiar. And so not everybody

Unknown:

is willing to be out try and test things. So from that

Unknown:

perspective, you know, being somewhere moving the needle

Unknown:

would have been more beneficial. But again, that's the choice we

Unknown:

made. And so here we are, like next time, maybe slightly, you

Unknown:

know, less innovative. But again, maybe not. We'll see when

Unknown:

the next thing

Unknown:

right, well, I really appreciate that you said that you said that

Unknown:

about a marketing manager because I am very pro marketing.

Unknown:

As someone who works in marketing, I think marketing is

Unknown:

so important, because if you build something great, but there

Unknown:

There's no one to look at it that it doesn't matter. And the

Unknown:

sooner you can bring someone in who's going to say, hey,

Unknown:

everyone look at this thing, the better off you are. And I do

Unknown:

think it's very salient to say, it's good to be unique, but

Unknown:

things are popular for a reason. And it's because they're well

Unknown:

liked. So finding that balance of introducing unique elements,

Unknown:

while incorporating the good all familiar with things that people

Unknown:

love. Anything is important, and hard to do. I mean, all of these

Unknown:

things, like you said, you're you're building the bike while

Unknown:

you're writing it, there's no way to know some of this until

Unknown:

you get started. So that's just the unfortunate truth about

Unknown:

startups. Exactly

Unknown:

what we learn, right? So after four years, it's probably

Unknown:

already harder to call ourselves startup because we created the

Unknown:

game, it can be played. We have very good team. But still, you

Unknown:

know, we have we were small and our general, attitude hasn't

Unknown:

changed much always kind of start off.

Unknown:

Again, it on speaking of tell people where they can play nine

Unknown:

to five, and let them know, you know, what's, what's next and

Unknown:

what's exciting at Red Hill games.

Unknown:

So obviously, we continue working on line five, and that's

Unknown:

on Steam. And on stadia, depending on what you prefer

Unknown:

keyboard and mouse or controllers. It's available on

Unknown:

both platforms. And some, as I mentioned, at the beginning, we

Unknown:

are planning to work on shooters. So something next will

Unknown:

be also in the shooting genre. We don't know yet what exactly

Unknown:

it will be we have several ideas, which designers and

Unknown:

artists and programmers are discussing internally. And at

Unknown:

some point, of course, like as soon as we are ready to announce

Unknown:

something everybody's gonna hear about that. The best way to

Unknown:

follow is the web sites than the LinkedIn page. And we publish

Unknown:

all the news there.

Unknown:

I love the name nine to five and the call out to Dolly Parton. I

Unknown:

don't know if that was intentional or not. But I

Unknown:

it was a reference to the Yes, working day.

Unknown:

Yes, I love that. That's great. So before we get into our last

Unknown:

time, and I'm just going to summarize really quickly what we

Unknown:

talked about, we started this whole podcast, really this has

Unknown:

been one of the podcasts have I really remained on theme. Kind

Unknown:

of rare. But we have been having this discussion about work and

Unknown:

work environments quite a bit. One of the you gave lots of

Unknown:

great pieces of advice that I'm going to now go over. One of

Unknown:

them was that business intelligence and data data

Unknown:

engineering positions are in shortage. If you can work with

Unknown:

developers and ask and answer the right questions, do the

Unknown:

project management portion, you'll you'll be in high demand,

Unknown:

digital marketing, also in shortage and as you mentioned,

Unknown:

better to hire earlier than later. So if you know how to

Unknown:

operate in a digital world, or if you can take marketing

Unknown:

classes, whatever that may be, you'll be in demand. And then

Unknown:

the last thing that I thought was really interesting was

Unknown:

basically you said, if you have specialist skills, look for

Unknown:

specialized roles. The example you gave was that there's always

Unknown:

games being developed in the medical community. So if you're

Unknown:

a doctor who's really passionate about games, go out and look for

Unknown:

those of us that are developing games for doctors that learn on

Unknown:

the job and things like that and be a tester for that. We talked

Unknown:

a lot about gender diversity within redheal games, not only

Unknown:

within the company, but within the community. And you mentioned

Unknown:

that a large portion of your audience is male, but that the

Unknown:

women have an outsized voice in the community that you do have

Unknown:

and are able to really get their input out there. Which I think

Unknown:

is a great way of building a game from the ground up that

Unknown:

doesn't include toxicity or, or anything like that is just

Unknown:

having people talk about the game and play the game and talk

Unknown:

about how to improve the game no matter what they look like. A

Unknown:

huge mix of genders, cultures and languages brings a different

Unknown:

perspective to your company. You are very adept at getting people

Unknown:

to move across whatever pond they may be coming from given

Unknown:

that you have 25 countries represented, I believe you said

Unknown:

I'm one of the most important things into getting more women

Unknown:

into these roles. getting even more diversity in that way, is

Unknown:

starting young with early education. One thing that I

Unknown:

think is very unique and very cool about Red Hill games is

Unknown:

that you have career progression plans and a person dedicated to

Unknown:

working with employees to know where they want to go. think

Unknown:

that that is becoming more important as we get through the

Unknown:

great resignation and hopefully more companies will will

Unknown:

implement a role like that. In some industries, it may be more

Unknown:

beneficial just to leave the company and be able to kind of

Unknown:

upward move upward that way, but for companies that can handle

Unknown:

several projects at once, there might be several opportunities

Unknown:

happening simultaneously. So I think the general piece of

Unknown:

advice there was both to look within and outside of the

Unknown:

company for opportunities. If you are kind of stuck at your

Unknown:

current position, we talked about working at Big developers

Unknown:

versus startups. And startups allow you to work either in one

Unknown:

area of expertise, or on several different disciplines at once,

Unknown:

depending on what you want. Startups are more agile, which

Unknown:

can mean exploring more paths, big developers might be more so

Unknown:

about fulfilling your singular role and kind of being a cog

Unknown:

that kind of keeps that machine going, which also absolutely has

Unknown:

its value. It's just you have to know yourself and what you're

Unknown:

looking for. And we talked about the differences between the

Unknown:

American and European game environments. One thing that you

Unknown:

pointed out that was really good is that Americans have, this is

Unknown:

where game development really started. So you're gonna get

Unknown:

that truly seasoned experience from the US. But European

Unknown:

systems and benefits are just the bigger draw when it comes to

Unknown:

quality of life. And maybe, eventually, that'd be a bigger

Unknown:

job when it comes to quality of things over time. Who knows? We

Unknown:

ended with a discussion on on building a startup and what's

Unknown:

that what that's like, and how it's building the bicycle while

Unknown:

you're writing it. If you're starting a company, the two

Unknown:

pieces of advice you gave, hire a marketing manager early and

Unknown:

strike a balance between being unique, and taking elements that

Unknown:

are already popular. I think those are good pieces of advice

Unknown:

for any startup, really. So I am going to broaden that to the

Unknown:

tech industry at large, not just game development. So I am

Unknown:

alright. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I always feel a little bad because

Unknown:

I hope people know when I'm, I'm looking down and taking notes.

Unknown:

When they're talking. I'm not writing an email to anyone, I'm

Unknown:

actually writing episode notes. So the last section that I like

Unknown:

to end on with everyone and I asked a version of this, but I'm

Unknown:

going to ask more specifically to you is what is one thing you

Unknown:

would like to tell your younger self about getting into the

Unknown:

gaming industry and being successful?

Unknown:

Well, to tell the truth, I came to the gaming industry pretty

Unknown:

late, just eight years ago, and before there was like, you know,

Unknown:

different industries, different companies, probably, if I would

Unknown:

be talking to younger self, I would say try gaming industry

Unknown:

earlier, because it's such an exciting world, you can do so

Unknown:

much. And it's such a creative environment you're part of and

Unknown:

you can do so, so much. And when I got my first job in the gaming

Unknown:

industry, my son, of course likes to play said that finally,

Unknown:

Mom, you have a proper job. Because everything I was doing

Unknown:

before by burning Well, you know, growing as a professional

Unknown:

for him meant nothing. Yes, what has stood in the fridge, good.

Unknown:

But during gaming company, you're well done now proper job.

Unknown:

So like also, that helps bring closer the next generation. And

Unknown:

so we have a lot more to talk about now the kids, because I

Unknown:

better understand what their interests are. And I can also

Unknown:

refer to different game developers and games. And I

Unknown:

definitely know more about the world they live in. So that's

Unknown:

for sure. You know, talking to my younger self, I would say

Unknown:

like, you know, think for the future. And that will definitely

Unknown:

help you talking to your children and also be like in a

Unknown:

very healthy and exciting environment.

Unknown:

That is so funny. Kids will say whatever's on their mind. Katya,

Unknown:

thank you so much for coming on. I know you mentioned where

Unknown:

people can find and follow redheal games, but where can

Unknown:

they find and follow you if you want to be found in follow?

Unknown:

Well, absolutely,

Unknown:

feel free to drop in notes. I'm on LinkedIn, and Facebook and

Unknown:

all the social media and also if you write in also on the company

Unknown:

page also, you know, I'll get back to you. Perfect.

Unknown:

Thank you so so much for being here. This was so much fun. I

Unknown:

love learning about game development. And it was

Unknown:

especially cool learning about FPS is that not not my usual

Unknown:

forte so it's fun. For all the listeners out there. Be sure to

Unknown:

leave those five star ratings and reviews. It's not going to

Unknown:

be five stars. Don't leave it. I'm just kidding. But also check

Unknown:

out other holodeck media podcasts including metal

Unknown:

business and business of esports. I'm on Twitter,

Unknown:

Instagram and LinkedIn at Lindsey pass. always send me a

Unknown:

note. And you can catch me live Wednesdays on the business of

Unknown:

esports Life After Show. This podcast will be in your feed

Unknown:

feed every week. We'll see you next week.

Unknown:

Thanks for joining us here on meta woman. Make sure to

Unknown:

subscribe to this podcast everywhere you get your

Unknown:

podcasts, leave a five star review and tell your friends,

Unknown:

family and colleagues all about us. Also, make sure to follow

Unknown:

metta TV on all socials to get more of the best Metaverse

Unknown:

content anywhere. Tune in every week for another episode of have

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About the Podcast

META Woman
Weekly metaverse content - for women, by women
Meta Woman will focus on addressing the issues, opportunities, and challenges facing women in the development of the Metaverse. Top female executives and business people operating within the gaming and crypto industries bring a wide range of perspectives through regular guest appearances.