Episode 38

full
Published on:

16th Aug 2022

38. Becoming a Zen Master

Swatee Surve, Founder and CEO of Litesprite, joins the show this week. Litesprite is a new way for employers and employees to experience mental health benefits through an interactive environment that teaches people how to master their own zen. Swatee and I discuss mental health, what it's like working in the healthcare space, fundraising, revenue models, and plenty of stories about life and learning.

Episode Resources:

https://venturebeat.com/2022/05/14/how-game-leaders-can-change-systems-to-improve-employee-mental-health/

https://venturebeat.com/2022/03/19/swatee-surve-interview-showing-gratitude-to-your-friends-in-a-game/

https://venturebeat.com/2019/11/10/litesprites-game-for-treating-depression-gets-an-endorsement-from-bayers-startup-accelerator/

Transcript
Unknown:

Welcome to the meadow woman podcast. We address the

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issues, opportunities and challenges facing women in the

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development of the metaverse the biggest revolution since the

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internet itself. Every week we bring you conversations with top

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female talent and business executives operating in the

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gaming and crypto industries. Here's your host Lindsey, the

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boss POS, the metal woman podcast starts now.

Lindsay Poss:

Hello, and welcome to the metal woman podcast part

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of the holodeck media Podcast Network. I'm your host, Lindsey,

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the Boss Boss and from struggle to success. We're covering it

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all. It's all returning listeners. Thank you for

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listening to my voice week after week. Thank you for sending me

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messages. Keep

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doing that.

Lindsay Poss:

And for all the new listeners welcome. I hope

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you enjoy it. I hope you'll go back and listen to more

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episodes. I hope you'll listen to future episodes. I hope

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you'll join me. As many of you know, one of the many things I

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like to cover on the show is how to improve mental health, and

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just how to deal with bad days and struggles. That's why it's

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from struggle to success and everything in between. But for

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that reason, I'm excited for today's guest swatches survey.

Lindsay Poss:

SWATI is founder and CEO of light Sprite, which is a new way

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for employers and employees to experience mental health

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benefits. SWATI Welcome to the show. I would love for you to

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introduce yourself and give I can't do the perfect

Lindsay Poss:

introduction here. Right. So it's up to you tell me who you

Lindsay Poss:

are, and let everyone know what you do and, and what lights it's

Lindsay Poss:

all about. Sure. Um,

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so I'm the founder and CEO of lights bright. And I'm an

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engineer by training. So I have a bachelor's in Biomedical

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Engineering, and I have a master's in mechanical

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engineering. So I'm I like to build things and I like to

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create. I'm a bit of a tinkerer. although probably not as good as

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I would like to be like, because I have a tendency to take things

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apart. But I can never put them back together again and get them

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working again. I tried to do that with time. I'm gonna really

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I'm gonna really date myself because I'm really old. But I

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was trying to I got really curious about an answering

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machine one time, and I thought it'd be fun to to disassemble

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it. I couldn't put it back together.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, that's a new one. Yeah. Old school. No, no, I

Lindsay Poss:

just mean, I would I never looked at an answering machine.

Lindsay Poss:

My parents take you apart. It's one of those things.

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So um, and for me, what I've really been what's really

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driven my personal interest is that intersection between health

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and technology, and how do you create technology that people

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can use for themselves to to take them take care of their

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health and improve it. And that's really been my passion,

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hence, the biomedical engineering and even when I was

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doing mechanical engineering, it was around biomechanics. So

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studying how people walked, for example, so and my roles I

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before launching lights bright, I worked in a variety of

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corporate roles, but these were a little different. I was

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working in a large company. So I started my career at Nike,

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excuse me at Kodak. And I was recruited by Nike. And and then

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I also worked at Microsoft and it T Mobile, or some some some

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of the global brands that I've worked at, I've worked with a

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lot of I've also worked in nonprofit and radio. Yes, so

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I've done that. I was doing business development, or Public

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Radio International. And I've done a smattering of things

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before launching into LightScribe. But the core core

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focus that I had, was really about are the roles I was

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playing was around incubating and creating new ideas or

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business opportunities for all of these organizations. They

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were at inflection points where they knew disruptive technology

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was coming down the pipeline, and they want to position well

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to take advantage of those revenue for the company. So So

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these were generally incubation groups, research in research

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labs. That's where I came but I was an entrepreneur in

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residence. So not just in I was focused on that intersection of

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outside of the radio, one that can't really do help keep focus,

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but most of the other ones were all focused at the intersection

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of healthcare and technology. And and how do you create

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products? How do you create businesses? How do you

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commercialize these emerging innovations? Also, from a

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business strategy perspective? What if, if Nike, for example, I

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was recruited to work on wearables? So what's the

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company's position in that in that space? Now, mind you? This

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was in 2001. There was no quick technology.

Lindsay Poss:

That's true. Yeah, it was a little bit before then.

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Yes, we wouldn't be another full 10 years before

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with with proliferation of mobile and adoption of mobile,

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that you would see that opportunity come up. Right. But

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but those were the kinds of questions I was talking about,

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those were the kind of the strategic trade offs and, and

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proposals we have to make, generally, to senior leadership.

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So it positioned and I even worked in an insurance Health

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insurance company, right before I launched lights, right. So and

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that was also to help them with the ACA, I was in corporate

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strategy and helping them figure out how to respond to the ACA.

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So it was a lot of that, you know, in what that all of those

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things taught me was a couple of things, it taught me how to

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evaluate an idea identify, like, an opportunity for the future, I

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apparently was good at it, which is why it kept getting these

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rolls.

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That's always good. Yeah. And so

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um, and, and I also gained really, depreciation of the wall

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technology hasn't doesn't have if you're especially trying to

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address health issues and health concerns. Because those roles,

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it wasn't just consumers, I would talk to talk to doctors, I

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would talk to health care system, I would talk to

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insurance company, executives write in, in a variety of, in a

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variety of ways release different roles. And, and I

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really began and I talked to patients, right. And so I really

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began to get a deep understanding of not just the

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business challenges in healthcare, and that's hard.

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But, and those are complex, but also, what does a patient

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ultimately, which is always been my thing, so I just to help help

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the end user help the patient case. And so and, and what I

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found, is that it's individual motivation, not the technology

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that really matters. So the technology that enables

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inspiration empowers, it makes things easier for patient, then

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you're gonna start to see that behavior change, and they're

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gonna feel like, and they have the tools at their disposal to

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make the changes. So seeing that, and then, when I was doing

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and it was, like, all along, I was always tinkering on the side

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trying to figure out, well, maybe I should do my own thing.

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And there were a couple of ideas which, which are, frankly, are

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billion dollar business ideas now. Which is fine. But I

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didn't, I didn't feel like I was the right person. For those. So

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like, in 2001 2002, I was thinking, well, wouldn't it be

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great if you could

Lindsay Poss:

rent clothes? Yeah. And I'm like, I'm funny.

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And I'm like, you know, I really don't. And at that

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time, you know, you really kind of had to go to centers where

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things were in my vision of it was, you know, I just don't want

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to live in New York. I like it. I was in upstate. So, like, I'm

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not, I'm not a Sex in the City kind of girls. So it's cool.

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It's cool to visit. I love it, but it's me and I grew up in

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Chicago, right? Like, I'm a Midwestern er, so was it like a

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big city was out of out of out of something I wasn't familiar

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with, you know, and I guess I went out and lived in upstate, I

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go up a lot. I go down to the city quite a bit, so I knew it,

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but I don't really know when I'm not feeling it. So. But yeah,

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that's, that's I think,

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I mean, for that to

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happen. I just couldn't figure out like, for me, like, I just

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didn't feel like I was the right person for that idea. And I was

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like, um, I don't, I couldn't figure out the logistics. From

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logistics behind that, I'm like, Wow, this would be really,

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really hard. It's gonna take a lot of money. I don't have money

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and time you think it's hard fundraising now, back then they

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weren't, you couldn't even get a meeting with like an investor,

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right? Like, if you're a person of color level, like they

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weren't, they weren't, they would. If I talked to investors

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back in the day, I would have to wear a wedding ring just to make

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sure that they would behave properly and even then they

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wouldn't necessarily Oh, yeah, I'd have to, like fake a wedding

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ring. Um, some of the questions I would get asked. Were pretty I

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mean, you know, we've all heard the horror stories, right? And

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then that that's the way it was just like I like I don't do

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house. Those are one of the ideas that I had. But back to

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lights bright. I had seen some of the early indicators. In in

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2000, there were some peer reviewed journals talking about

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gaming improving. In that case, it was in this is a very, very

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well known, published study in the community. It was a video

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game called Snow World, and it helped burn victims do their

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physical exercises without without any morphine. And it

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was, right. So I'm like, how someone's going to make this

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happen. It's going to come right. And you know, that was

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2010 years later, still haven't seen anything. And we comes out,

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X box with Kinect comes out. And I'm like, hasn't this taken off

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yet? Right? And the nicey? Or, like, Okay, well, consumers

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certainly want it. Right. They're buying units and all

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that. So like, okay, and, and then when I started doing more

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research and reading the papers, I saw that gaming could in fact,

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improve health outcomes, but they weren't focused on that.

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Those were all physical games. Very few were focused. And those

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are mainly like for health reasons, like healthy games,

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extra gaming, as they call it, but very few, if you look now,

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from the business side of healthcare, where the cost is,

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and where the problem is, is people have a lot of chronic

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issues and are really sick. They're the high cost dividuals.

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So no, looking at that. So I said, Well, what if we created a

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platform, that could be games that could actually help with

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help people with chronic conditions? And, and then

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looking at that, and now this is 2013. So no one's really

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thinking about mental health at this point in time. And, in

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fact, a lot of people like Why Why are you doing mental health,

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like, cares about that?

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That was the reaction, right. But it was an underserved

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year in industry, from many perspectives from a technology

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perspective. It but it also made it harder to create a business

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because the backing was there, even the healthcare community

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wasn't. But I said, you know, I think there's an opportunity

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here. And so we started working in mental health as the first

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start. Now, the other component highlights, right, that's also

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equally important is that the games themselves collect

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valuable data that we can give back to the provider, or the

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insurance company, or even the employer in an anonymized secure

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fashion to ensure privacy. And then that data is used for

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remote patient monitoring, it can be used to help with member

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experience, it can help employers address burnout with

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employees, especially in hybrid environments. So so there's a

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whole data channel and what can happen is over time, with the

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high the unique data that we collect, we can actually start

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to build models that can be used and in for predictive risk for

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predicting risk. And in the case of mental health, predicting an

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individual who may be have may be at risk for suicide.

Lindsay Poss:

So that's how I got started.

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A little meandering here and there. But a common

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thread and and so I've been doing this since what 2013 Now,

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I'm bringing it to the forefront. And

Lindsay Poss:

so tell everyone a little bit about what lights

Lindsay Poss:

brick does and how it works. I know you mentioned some of the

Lindsay Poss:

things that I can address, but I want to get into like how you

Lindsay Poss:

actually are able to then service people Sure.

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So with mental health, we built a clinically validated

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mental health video game called Sprite. And what that does is

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it's a, we call it it, the format of the game is called,

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it's a player driven world exploration game, or choose your

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own adventure, more commonly known. And we have a little

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protagonist sauce, sacrifice success with me today. I'm

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keeping the company. But socks wants to be a Zen master. And so

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what happens in the game is that players learn a range of skills

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as they help stocks as investors. So and that's the

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unique piece of this is that we actually are teaching skills,

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but we're not focused just on one. But we are presenting a

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range and we teach by doing, we don't teach by, by lecturing, we

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teach by doing. As when one player who said to me, I have

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had anxiety all my life, and struggled with it, I've used all

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the apps out there, all the meditation apps, they don't

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work. But in yours is the first one that doesn't even talk about

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stress, you just get in there and do things.

Lindsay Poss:

Oh, I see. Okay. So don't talk

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about it, which is not strictly and it actually doesn't

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stress me out using this app. Okay, so So that's the player

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experience. Right. And so, and these techniques that we teach,

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we teach a range, as I mentioned, and those are

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journaling, there's diaphragmatic breathing, there's

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meditation, there's a multiplayer experience with

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gratitude. So it's a range of skills that we teach. And these

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are all evidence based, and, and mindfulness strategies that are

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proven to improve stress, and reduce stress and improve

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anxiety and depression symptoms. And then, the other way the game

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works is that the framework that all of these experiences, we

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have mini games, so we teach these in the form of mini games,

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the mini games themselves, sit on a framework, which is called

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Bandura, social cognitive theory. And that's designed to

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improve a player self awareness and their self efficacy. So what

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ends up happening is, as I said, we teach by doing. And the other

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other piece of it is that it becomes an experience and a

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place for

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people to go.

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And so people say it's a place for me to go, it's a place for

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me to explore, it's a place for me to process my emotions in a

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way that, that I can't anywhere else in a non judgmental way.

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It's at my pace, I direct it. So that's how Cinna sprite works.

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And it's easy. It's meant to be done in less than five minutes a

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day. Whenever you know, and that's what we've seen. Speaking

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of New York, I have a lot of friends in New York, I love

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them. And I've heard some reports where people have been

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able to do some meditation while on the train or the bus. So some

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high high, high traffic high noise area, but it's, it's

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pretty easy to implement. And that's the point of the

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experience

Lindsay Poss:

itself. And can you go over how you actually get

Lindsay Poss:

it to people, because I think this is one of the unique parts

Lindsay Poss:

of how sim sprite works. I know that you go through employers

Lindsay Poss:

quite a bit. So how did that didn't first move on by model?

Lindsay Poss:

And then second, can you talk about why you chose this method?

Lindsay Poss:

Or how that came about?

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Sure. Um, yeah, that's an interesting one, because

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everyone always asked us, they think we're a consumer company,

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consumer facing company, but most healthcare startups for

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their real monetization model, they're generally enterprise. So

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they're gonna sell to one to three customers, we're gonna

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sell to an insurance company, they'll sell to a health system,

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or they will sell to an employee. And so, um, and, and

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prior to the pandemic, where we were seeing interests were from

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health systems, or providers and surance company. So that's what

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we're focusing on. And frankly, a lot of the work that we were

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doing. We were, you know, our clinical validation, our the

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work that we were doing around, even getting paid and the

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reimbursement pathways. That was all to address those, the needs

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of that customer base. But then when COVID hit me ended up we

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start getting inbound requests.

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And they were saying,

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and I'm sure everybody has experienced this themselves,

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where they saw a lot of people were really struggling in 2020.

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And in for good reason. It was not a great year. And a lot of

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ways, so. And so we said, Okay, well, maybe there's an untapped

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business opportunity here. And and we continue to get inbound

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requests. And so, so we're now offering, we have a free version

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that anybody can download on the App Store or send a sprite. And

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maybe you can include those in the links or something. Yes,

Lindsay Poss:

absolutely.

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But, uh, but we have a free version. So that part of

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our mission to make sure everybody has access to some

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tools is there. And then we have an enterprise version for

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employers that they can then roll out to all of their

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employees.

Lindsay Poss:

Okay, and can you tell me about how you decided to

Lindsay Poss:

go with that model? We're, well, I guess a better way of saying

Lindsay Poss:

it is, what are some of the benefits and drawbacks of being

Lindsay Poss:

an organization that works on the employer to employee side

Lindsay Poss:

rather than kind of more direct? Like, and I know you have

Lindsay Poss:

personally Absolutely. Now, which is awesome. And what are

Lindsay Poss:

kind of the benefits of doing the health insurance way? versus

Lindsay Poss:

going straight to the App Store? Yeah, um,

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I honestly, it's very difficult to so I'm, I'm a I'm a

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cuz Believe it or not, I'm a really conservative when it

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comes to like, commercializing a business. I am much to the

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probably irritation of some of my investors. I believe I want

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to build a sustainable business that will generate revenue, and

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will I build, I want to have a legacy, I want to build

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something that will last that will have some some longevity,

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right? I'm not here to pump up a company, you know, get the

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valuation pumped up, and then you know, exit, and then there's

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no product again, that's because I'm an engineer. I want to build

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If I build it, a lot people use it. And it should work. And it

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should, it should be a quality, right? So if you look at this,

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I'm really conservative when it comes to also like launching a

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business. I've never frankly, understood the unit economics of

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how app based in even traditional Gaelic, I know how

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traditional games work, like traditional games, that's a

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different story, right? Like, I totally get what it like when

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you talk about mental health resilience, or these health apps

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and stuff. First of all, in healthcare, nobody pays for it.

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Believe it, it's ironic. No one will pay for anything,

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especially in the US. Because the assumption are they did well

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my case, I paid my insurance for this. Right. So that's one

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thing. So it's very hard in health and well being to

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monetize. And now if you talk about an app, what are you

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monetize it? Right? Okay, like what's, what are you actually

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what's the consumer paying for? And so, a lot of these

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companies, they end up in this content model, where it's, Hey,

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we've got this new thing for you to listen to, we've got load,

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right and it's content. II teach by doing we don't teach by

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telling, we teach by doing. And so in I just couldn't I just

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honestly couldn't get the unit economics. Like in my head. I'm

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like, I don't understand the amount of marketing you have to

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spend. Now granted, interestingly enough, our

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marketing when we did we did some trialing on Facebook,

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right, just just the general responses and, and one of the

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things about Healthcare's, you have to run dual paths, because

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your buyer is ticked generally, like even an employer, they're

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less conservative than an insurance company or health

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system. Right? And understandably so, right.

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because there's risk associated, especially when talking about

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mental health, like there's good reason for the Conservatives not

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saying that, but when the buyer is that conservative, you have

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to de risk. And the way that you have to de risk is to show that

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look, people will use this, right? So you have to run a

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parallel path. And it's kind of funny, because it wasn't until

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even two or three years ago, not even, probably in the last year

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or two, have people even appreciated that you additional,

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like a nursery point for healthcare startups, because

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they were always like, pick one or the other. And the reality of

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it is, is to healthcare shops have to run both. Because they

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have to show the buyer here, here's what the end users thinks

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and b2b etc. Right? Yeah. Right. But but there's no, it's a

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leader to show adoption. So when we ran Facebook ads, for

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example, at one point, it was pretty interesting, because our,

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our user acquisition costs were a third of the industry average,

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a quarter to a third. And there were so much word of mouth. It

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was it was pretty, it was pretty, pretty cool. Um, the

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question, and we even got a couple of conversions. Right?

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But how much we we didn't get a chance to complete the

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experiment to figure out how much would we need to, you know,

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convert for subscription. But, but the reality of it is, is,

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you know, like, you're hiring someone, you're running the ads,

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you know, our price point. Commercially, it's like, it's

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$120 a year subscription. That's, that's more than a

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Kindle. Less than a therapy session, but more than a Kindle.

Lindsay Poss:

You know, the buyers,

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I don't know at all you might get we always get

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subscriptions are lasted maybe two or three months, which is

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fine. Right, which is fine, too, we have a monthly and that's

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okay, we want to be available for folks. But but as a

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business, that's not going to give you sustainable revenue.

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And again, the amount of marketing that you need to put

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into it. It's substantial, unless, you know, we can get and

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generate buzz and word of mouth. But But what's the conversion,

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and a lot of these other companies, typically in the

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consumer space, especially when it's app based or digital have

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some source important digital service, their assumption and

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just like games, their assumption is you got a bunch of

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people who, like active users who don't pay. And so your trick

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is to keep these guys on platform and active, and then a

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couple of them will pop up. Right? That will be your super

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fans, and those are the ones that are going to spend tons of

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money but like, what tons of money are they going to spend? I

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don't really want to start upselling people, like maybe

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it's different expansion packs, right? Breathing exercises, or

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other things to do and learn, right? You know, you can imagine

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those kinds of things. But it's, that's a that's a whole

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different undertaking. Whereas if you go enterprise. Now,

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again, you have to answer things differently, you have to have

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different protocols in place, you know, in consumer privacy is

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is absolutely a concern. But if you're working with a health

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system or insurance, right, then you definitely need to think

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about HIPAA, employers definitely do not contrary to

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popular belief, they do not want to seek personal information of

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their employees, right? They what they want to do is, excuse

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me, what they want to do is get information so they can be

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responsive to them. Right. So but you know, we need to talk

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about that, and how are we offering that? And then there's

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different questions, but how do you deploy? How do you scale?

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How easy is it to implement? So those are the things that that

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you have to answer on the enterprise side, but it gets it

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helps in a mind you. A lot of digital health companies,

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especially in the mental health care space now are targeting

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employers so so it's a very, very competitive and crowded

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space. And that being said, we hear time and time again that

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this solution is like nothing that people have seen before.

Unknown:

Even in the crowded space, and when they look at our numbers

Unknown:

and metrics, and how we're able to perform against industry

Unknown:

standards. It's it I had a I was on a customer call just

Unknown:

yesterday and they're like they're against that made you

Unknown:

the benchmarks? It's not that not that high of a hurdle to

Unknown:

overcome, right. But the benchmarks but this one employer

Unknown:

was saying, you know, we have tried a lot of things, employees

Unknown:

don't use use it, but we know they're struggling, you know,

Unknown:

center concern, their concern is that if they offer something, we

Unknown:

want people to use it, right? It's like, why am I going to

Unknown:

like, right? Like, if you buy something for yourself, you

Unknown:

know, whether it's an app, or a peloton bike, or you know, that

Unknown:

new, new new gadget for your kitchen? I think most people

Unknown:

most most will be like, well, am I going to use it? Is it worth

Unknown:

the investment? Right, and the employer is going to ask the

Unknown:

same thing. So they want to make sure people are using it. And

Unknown:

they're saying, you know, we've tried a lot of different

Unknown:

solutions in no one's adopting it. And then when I showed them

Unknown:

the results of what we were able to do for another client, they

Unknown:

were like, Oh, wow, that's pretty impressive.

Lindsay Poss:

Um, so I want to just make sure that this this

Lindsay Poss:

point is kind of clear. But what I'm hearing the difference

Lindsay Poss:

between kind of building something from the enterprise

Lindsay Poss:

from that side versus going straight from business to

Lindsay Poss:

consumer on that side, is you might not have as faster

Lindsay Poss:

explosive growth on the enterprise side, but we've have

Lindsay Poss:

as a more sustainable and consistent revenue model that

Lindsay Poss:

depends a little bit less on user acquisition and marketing.

Unknown:

Yep. Right. And here's the other important point.

Unknown:

Your

Unknown:

lifetime value of your consumer has to be higher than your

Unknown:

customer acquisition. So like, for example, when they call them

Unknown:

whales in games, right? They'll spend 1000s. Right? I was on a,

Unknown:

I was talking to somebody and he's like, Yeah, I he knew

Unknown:

someone who spent $30,000 on a

Unknown:

game. Okay.

Unknown:

I'm on another note, I was on Twitter. Don't ask me why this

Unknown:

showed up in my feed. But there was the Kim Kardashian mobile

Unknown:

game, that's how she actually got started was Yeah, right.

Unknown:

I remember that one.

Unknown:

While still going. And, and literally just this was a very

Unknown:

recently, like, within the last week of Twitter was like, I

Unknown:

spent hundreds of dollars on it.

Unknown:

Right. So what are you benchmarking against? Like? And

Unknown:

what's, what's the average lifetime revenue of user? So,

Unknown:

and and in consumer, like, for most apps, it's just really hard

Unknown:

to recoup those costs, like the willingness to pay doesn't cover

Unknown:

the cost to get the user.

Lindsay Poss:

Gotcha. Jarick sense. Okay. Right. Yeah, that

Lindsay Poss:

massive question.

Unknown:

Right. It just, it's, I haven't been able to see it add

Unknown:

up, you know, and I've got some friends who are really smart.

Unknown:

You know, and actually, I had one friend, who is a partner in

Unknown:

McKinsey, fairly smart guy, went to business school with him. I

Unknown:

also did my MBA at the University of Chicago. And so,

Unknown:

I, I know, he's gay, what do you do? Oh, I'm doing my app and you

Unknown:

know, hanging out doing what's right, and, you know, just

Unknown:

grinding it out. And you know, and he starts asking all these

Unknown:

kinds of questions and stuff and then at that point, and I didn't

Unknown:

know this, right, um, but I guess he was just kind of

Unknown:

interviewing me and doing his due diligence to see if maybe he

Unknown:

wants to invest doesn't tell me this. Right. But okay, that's

Unknown:

fine. And you know, I'm, I don't want to say I'm naive, but I'm

Unknown:

not one of these people who like I just don't have time and I

Unknown:

don't mind mind does not hardwired to be like what's

Unknown:

their angle and try to figure out what they're doing. I'm

Unknown:

like, Oh, he wants to talk and he wants to talk about okay,

Unknown:

fine, right, like and at one point, you know, I remember this

Unknown:

I was getting pushed by a lot of people several years ago to go

Unknown:

direct. I was getting pushed by a lot of people, even some of my

Unknown:

strategics strategic investors so we in life, right we have now

Unknown:

we have five at the time we had four but I'm So our strategics

Unknown:

include ARP, they include Bayer pharmaceuticals and includes

Unknown:

next Q jumpstart foundry tabula rasa. So and, and you know, now

Unknown:

mind you none of these people where I was getting these this

Unknown:

direction from super smart, highly qualified, worked in

Unknown:

great companies with great positions, none of them ever

Unknown:

built anything or launched anything. And everything of

Unknown:

their advice was what they were reading and seeing it was very

Unknown:

academic. Right? Because I just went through this math in my

Unknown:

head about how the hell you're going to make money. Right?

Unknown:

Because, again, I want a sustainable business. So, and

Unknown:

especially in the reason another reason I have to do that, as a

Unknown:

woman of color, raising money is always a challenge. So I have to

Unknown:

be

Lindsay Poss:

willing to ask you about that. Yeah.

Unknown:

So I have to do that on my own. Okay, and then you know,

Unknown:

and then I always get the oh, well, you're not selling it easy

Unknown:

enough, or you're just not a good salesperson or whatever.

Unknown:

And I'm like, Yeah, that might be the case. And if that is the

Unknown:

case, then there's even more reason that I need to make it

Unknown:

more sustainable on my own. Right? If I'm a shitty salesman,

Unknown:

okay, fine, then that's even more reason why, if I have that

Unknown:

weakness, then let's solve the weakness and other way rather

Unknown:

than you know, upping my my showmanship skills or whatever

Unknown:

presentation skills or whatever it is, right. I'm generally

Unknown:

think is the case, frankly, but so, so, um, so he, so I'm

Unknown:

getting a lot of this advice, especially around this time, it

Unknown:

was very, very frustrating for me, because, you know, I'd ask

Unknown:

these people, and then it gets these weird questions to like,

Unknown:

what can you scale? And you know, I'm a technologist, and

Unknown:

I'm like, it's on the App Store. So when someone tells me and

Unknown:

asked me that question about scale, I think can you reach can

Unknown:

your technology support? Will the infrastructure crumble or

Unknown:

break down? Do you have a break points, right, or response time

Unknown:

gaps, right, like, that kind of stuff? Does the app crash,

Unknown:

right? Is there UI UX issues that make it hard on board? Like

Unknown:

very product centric stuff? back end stuff? And like, what are

Unknown:

they talking about scale? I'm like, like, we're global. And we

Unknown:

have global users like, so. So then, some of this is gonna come

Unknown:

together in a second. Um, it wasn't until so this was like

Unknown:

three or two, right before the pandemic 20 2019 or so. Right?

Unknown:

2019. Right. And it wasn't until this past few months ago. Did I

Unknown:

realize what some of these people were asking about?

Unknown:

Because I think I asked about it, or somehow it came up. When

Unknown:

they talk about ability to scale they were talking about the fact

Unknown:

that you didn't raise I haven't raised in their minds mind. We

Unknown:

didn't raise enough money. Stability to scale means Have

Unknown:

you raised enough money

Unknown:

to grow your team.

Unknown:

As far as they were concerned, yeah. And so when you hear a

Unknown:

question, and you don't understand what the hell they're

Unknown:

talking about, ask them. Because I have never heard up until this

Unknown:

point. Now, mind you, right. This was just this. I've been

Unknown:

doing this for nine years. I've never heard an investor. Talk

Unknown:

about ability to scale, translating into how much money

Unknown:

have you already raised? So can you grow?

Lindsay Poss:

Up? Yeah, that's an interesting metric to use. I

Lindsay Poss:

was going this actually leads in quite nicely, but I was going to

Lindsay Poss:

ask you, and this is obviously, I mean, this, this follows along

Lindsay Poss:

the same lines. But you have been working on Whitesburg and

Lindsay Poss:

working in kind of startups for a bit now, how has how have

Lindsay Poss:

investor relations change as a woman of color and even just

Lindsay Poss:

even just in the environment in general, because we had

Lindsay Poss:

obviously an explosion in tech growth in the early 2010. And

Lindsay Poss:

you're right, it was totally all about growth. It was how fast

Lindsay Poss:

you grow. How fast you grow, was not about sustainable revenue

Lindsay Poss:

model at all. Oh,

Unknown:

I call it the stuffing the goose theory.

Lindsay Poss:

But how has How have things like changed over

Lindsay Poss:

time and what has been better or worse different than you've seen

Lindsay Poss:

and especially for people who are looking for funding Right

Lindsay Poss:

now, what are some of the good things? And some of the

Lindsay Poss:

challenges?

Unknown:

Yeah, yeah. I'll get to that in a second. Can I finish

Unknown:

the other story too? Absolutely circular. But yeah, but but the

Unknown:

other thing, so I was getting this from friends, right? I'm

Unknown:

getting this from friends I'm getting like go to direct

Unknown:

consumer. In my one friend then finally tells me and this will

Unknown:

also segue into this next question. He's like, well, then

Unknown:

he finally real reveals his cards. Well, I was thinking I

Unknown:

was going to invest in you, but I don't think you have a

Unknown:

business model. And I think I think you're gonna fail. Oh, and

Unknown:

about two months later, we got our strategic investor from

Unknown:

investment from bear. Wow. And it had I followed the guidance

Unknown:

and advice from all these Well, meaning, but frankly, people who

Unknown:

just really didn't understand the space we're in and what

Unknown:

we're trying to do. I wouldn't have been positioned to get that

Unknown:

strategic investment. Because we did a lot of clinical

Unknown:

validation. We had done a lot of work on how does it get paid?

Unknown:

The back end and the data, right? I mean, as a result, now,

Unknown:

we'd won at that point, like 25 Global Health Innovation Awards.

Unknown:

Now we're over 30, including the first video games when a Surgeon

Unknown:

General, right. And mind you, you know that he was one of the

Unknown:

first, right, but I continued to get these kinds of comments from

Unknown:

people. Right, and it was a constant diversion, frankly, and

Unknown:

it was attacks because it was diverting my attention from what

Unknown:

I really needed to do. Which was broke business. So how have I

Unknown:

seen things change? Well, I mean, some of this is really

Unknown:

personal, right? Like, some of this is going to be so dependent

Unknown:

on the individual. where you're coming from how, you know, just,

Unknown:

frankly, your style and how people react to the style.

Unknown:

Right. So I'm, I'm pretty good Garius as you can kind of pick

Unknown:

up

Unknown:

I have an idea of what you might

Unknown:

be reserved person to begin with. Um, it's because I become

Unknown:

less reserved, you know, when I was in corporate, I could, you

Unknown:

know, button it up, and I can still snap into it, right. But

Unknown:

the time constant on that has gotten much less. To button it

Unknown:

up, so to speak. Um, no, but you know, I, I'm pretty good. Arius

Unknown:

really approachable. I don't take myself too seriously. You

Unknown:

can if you're doing what we're doing, right, and I'm fairly

Unknown:

empathetic, right. And I think, for a lot of people that for a

Unknown:

lot of people in the business context, there's an I got this

Unknown:

more in corporate that oh, she's superficial, she's frivolous,

Unknown:

she's not serious. And that was far from the truth, right? Like,

Unknown:

if you look at my background, the organizations I've worked

Unknown:

at, you look at the schools, I've gone to the performances, I

Unknown:

formance. I've driven for those organizations, the best

Unknown:

practices, I've set up the recognition I've gotten, that's

Unknown:

far from the case, I just don't need to wear it on my sleeve as

Unknown:

a badge of honor, saying, hey, here I am, I'm more interested

Unknown:

in learning from people and I'm more interested in contributing,

Unknown:

rather than talking about stuff accomplished. So, um, so I think

Unknown:

so some of these, so this is just context to state, what I'm

Unknown:

going to share is probably, it may or may not apply to others,

Unknown:

right? Because I have a very different personality. I grew up

Unknown:

in engineering, right? So I was always surrounded by guys. Some

Unknown:

of them were asshats. But a lot of people are really nice. And

Unknown:

and for the most part, you know, I had some challenges, like the

Unknown:

traditional challenges that a woman engineer would have. And

Unknown:

you know, I started my career in manufacturing at Kodak, for

Unknown:

example, working on like, I was really fascinated again, by

Unknown:

manufacturing, and this really cool automated robotic wide

Unknown:

stuff like cameras, the little disposable cameras, which I

Unknown:

guess are retro now. So, but But you know, and I just thought

Unknown:

that was like the bee's knees at that time. And, and that was a

Unknown:

tough environment. Um, so So you know, I got some You know, a

Unknown:

thicker skin? Potentially? I would say I'm very objective in

Unknown:

my, again, very processed and sort of analytical, some very

Unknown:

systems, very objective in my decision making process my

Unknown:

judgment, right, so I'm going to bring that to the table. Um, so

Unknown:

So um, so when I started, I did not have any delusions, like I

Unknown:

just assumed I wasn't going to no one was going to give me

Unknown:

like, that was my blanket assumption when I launched.

Unknown:

There weren't that many women of color watching companies. Right,

Unknown:

let alone in health care. I mean, it started happening,

Unknown:

right, which is great. Great. And I'm glad I'm at least part

Unknown:

of that cohort, and not even earlier on because it would have

Unknown:

been, Oh, I think I think but even then, you know, I was

Unknown:

trying to network, I'm in Seattle, so it was trying to

Unknown:

network in the community there. It's a community that

Unknown:

understands business enterprise software really well. Health

Unknown:

care was something which to my mind, I didn't really understand

Unknown:

why they would shy away from it. It made no sense to me

Unknown:

personally, but it was just something they were very

Unknown:

hesitant to delve into. At the time, if there was healthcare

Unknown:

investments, it was med devices, digital health was still new.

Unknown:

And frankly, it was dismissed. It was rather late, even even

Unknown:

the healthcare investors, you're all that's not a real like it

Unknown:

even today, frankly, I am still, it's still frustrating to see

Unknown:

how it's still not considered at least in this region. A separate

Unknown:

it's, it's acknowledged as a separate vertical within

Unknown:

healthcare. Even though the rest of the country in the rest of

Unknown:

the world kind of has figured that out. That seems to be a

Unknown:

challenge here for this reason, region.

Lindsay Poss:

And so when I was

Unknown:

launching, I would go around, um, I had not in my

Unknown:

career, I had leadership roles, I had just started to get into

Unknown:

some of the management roles as well, right. Early on in my

Unknown:

career, I was actually I had a, I was on a fast track, and then

Unknown:

the recession hit two recessions hit right, or No, I was the one.

Unknown:

And that just kind of derailed everything. Right. And so then I

Unknown:

had to, like rebuild from that point. And incorporate that was

Unknown:

also one of my frustrations is that I wasn't being saved. My

Unknown:

accomplishments, my capability, I wasn't. I was also in very

Unknown:

hyper competitive environments, and I just didn't do well. I

Unknown:

don't like I didn't like it. I don't like hyper competitive,

Unknown:

I've been in enough of them. And that's not the way I want to

Unknown:

spend my life. Again, I'm a builder. Right, and you don't

Unknown:

build things by competing against. So it wasn't an

Unknown:

environment that and that's, and I think that was one thing. So I

Unknown:

think when I launched my journey, there was elements of

Unknown:

myself that frankly, I needed to also address, you know, and heal

Unknown:

some extent, and, and as a CEO, here's the thing, as a CEO,

Unknown:

whether you like it or not, you are the face of the company. And

Unknown:

if you cannot present in a way that gives people that sense of

Unknown:

confidence, the sense that you are, you have the ability to

Unknown:

handle complexity.

Unknown:

You know, they're not

Unknown:

in a team, you have to deal with a woman of color, you have to

Unknown:

even over wrap. But keep in mind, at that time, I had this

Unknown:

crazy idea to I want to put games in healthcare, and I'm

Unknown:

gonna do like this thing around mental health, like what the

Unknown:

fuck is that? Like? Everybody was like, I would literally get

Unknown:

this is never gonna work. So there's a function of the idea

Unknown:

and where I'm at, right? So you're gonna get skepticism and

Unknown:

dismissiveness. And there always be some reason Oh, well, it's a

Unknown:

crowded space. So they're gonna dismiss you. Oh, well, it's been

Unknown:

done before and it failed. So they'll dismiss you. I've never

Unknown:

heard this and they'll notice you.

Lindsay Poss:

They're gonna give you some reason.

Unknown:

And it wasn't until I consistently started performing.

Unknown:

people's reactions started changing but also I realized

Unknown:

that for myself, um there were a lot of there were even some

Unknown:

friends of mine. They would they didn't treat like they would the

Unknown:

way they would react. Me, I will you know, then I actually had to

Unknown:

ask myself these questions were, and I had actually internalize

Unknown:

this. And this is really interesting story. But I want

Unknown:

you to start asking myself if if they were they were die. If I

Unknown:

was a guy, would they talk to me this way? Would they ask these

Unknown:

kinds of questions? And if the question was, if I didn't, if I

Unknown:

couldn't say definitively, no, then I'm like, wait a minute,

Unknown:

there's something going on. Right? Because I'm also I've

Unknown:

worked with men all my life been around, that's not in some

Unknown:

intense environment. So like, that wasn't the case, right? But

Unknown:

there was this I call it the concept of presumption of

Unknown:

competence. And that's wasn't happening. It was very rare.

Unknown:

And, and, and I had one, and I had internalized it so much that

Unknown:

I was interviewing a marketing candidate one time. And I was

Unknown:

telling him about, you know, at this point, we'd want about

Unknown:

maybe five or five, four or five reports. And I'll tell you, them

Unknown:

and you know, we got some great patient stories and stuff, we

Unknown:

had launched our beta. And I'm like, Yeah, I'm really lucky

Unknown:

that I, you know, gotten this far. And you say, you're not

Unknown:

lucky your skill. I had I had it took a white guy. Yep. And then

Unknown:

I realized, okay, I'm not even owning it myself. And so, um,

Unknown:

and, and I also stopped associating with people who

Unknown:

weren't going to give me the time of day, I'm like, Okay,

Unknown:

fine.

Unknown:

I'll see you later. I'm gonna talk for you.

Unknown:

But I got I got done. Like, some people will talk about that

Unknown:

tenacity, right. And I talked about this in a Kaufman video,

Unknown:

I, that I'm like, No, I am of that ilk. Find your tribe. Don't

Unknown:

try to convince people who don't want to be convinced, find your

Unknown:

tribe. And work on it be tenacious, in the problem you're

Unknown:

solving. Don't be tenacious and trying to convince me. And so,

Unknown:

so I just literally have no patience, I suffer fools even

Unknown:

less. What I've seen, I've seen women and even in myself now I'm

Unknown:

much more comfortable talking about the challenges I've had

Unknown:

I've no issue. Like, if I were to bring up in 2013 They've

Unknown:

looked like you're making excuses.

Unknown:

Not to understand Yeah. Right. And getting to understand it.

Unknown:

You know, and, and, and it also took, you know, and look in

Unknown:

fairness. i It's a brand new concept. It was a brand new idea

Unknown:

I needed to out right, and and to do that I had to find my

Unknown:

tribe. But that meant I went global to find my tribe. Because

Unknown:

I wasn't here where I live.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, one. And I think we at least, the world

Lindsay Poss:

seems more receptive to that lately. I want to kind of, um, I

Lindsay Poss:

want to summarize what we've talked about so far. So we can

Lindsay Poss:

and I think you've given so many pieces of wisdom. But there's a

Lindsay Poss:

specific question I like to ask at the end of every episode that

Lindsay Poss:

that is a chance for you to just kind of summarize everything

Lindsay Poss:

that you've said so far up. So let me start by talking about we

Lindsay Poss:

we began with a discussion on lights right in the development

Lindsay Poss:

of CES, right. So this right is a way to become a Zen master by

Lindsay Poss:

leading Sachs third adventure, Fox, the fox is the main

Lindsay Poss:

character to love, great, great name, great character. And the

Lindsay Poss:

whole goal of citizens right is to teach skills by actually

Lindsay Poss:

doing so you're able to learn journaling, breathing,

Lindsay Poss:

meditation, gratitude, practice, some other things that can help

Lindsay Poss:

you actually deal with stress and difficult mental health

Lindsay Poss:

environments without specifically talking about those

Lindsay Poss:

environments, rather, by doing things that actually help

Lindsay Poss:

alleviate some of the issues that we talked a lot about

Lindsay Poss:

healthcare startups and how you are one that is started at the

Lindsay Poss:

enterprise level. So since right works with employers to get the

Lindsay Poss:

product to employee, which is one way you can be healthcare

Lindsay Poss:

startup, you also mentioned that you do have a direct b2c model

Lindsay Poss:

as in you have an app on the App Store that's available for

Lindsay Poss:

purchase. But that when it comes to those models, user

Lindsay Poss:

acquisition can be really tough. And often you're spending more

Lindsay Poss:

on actually getting users on the platform, then their willingness

Lindsay Poss:

to pay. So it can be helpful to have a really solid kind of

Lindsay Poss:

revenue stream through enterprise development. That

Lindsay Poss:

gives you good footing that gives you the chance to develop

Lindsay Poss:

and to do r&d without having the pressure of growth, growth,

Lindsay Poss:

growth needing to get users needing to figure out that

Lindsay Poss:

monetization strategy. We also talked about how it can be

Lindsay Poss:

definitely challenging to get investments in healthcare and

Lindsay Poss:

being a woman of color compounds that issue for you. It took a

Lindsay Poss:

lot of a of reaching all I needed. It also took a lot of

Lindsay Poss:

you not knowing when you're being interviewed for

Lindsay Poss:

investments, but it took it took knowing the market, knowing your

Lindsay Poss:

vision for what the market needed. And sticking by that and

Lindsay Poss:

finding the right strategic investors to actually go for

Lindsay Poss:

that, which meant may be different than in a straight up

Lindsay Poss:

VC type of investor, it meant going further strategic in the

Lindsay Poss:

in the corporate investors instead. But that was a way for

Lindsay Poss:

you to stay true to your vision and permission. And we also

Lindsay Poss:

talked about how staying true to your vision, your mission met

Lindsay Poss:

networking with people who will presume competence networking,

Lindsay Poss:

leaving you saying goodbye to all of that and moving forward

Lindsay Poss:

to find the people who actually did. So with all that on the

Lindsay Poss:

table, the thing that I like to end with is a moment of

Lindsay Poss:

reflection. So what is one thing you would like to tell your

Lindsay Poss:

younger self about getting into the gaming industry, but also

Lindsay Poss:

the health and technology sector and being successful? Um, I

Lindsay Poss:

think I think the biggest thing,

Unknown:

in terms of success for anybody is giving, especially in

Unknown:

the world we're in today. It's very tumultuous, highly

Unknown:

uncertain. There's something new happening every day, more so

Unknown:

than before, right? And, and, you know, you and I were

Unknown:

talking, as we were prepping on this call is just how much the

Unknown:

pandemic has really significantly impacted our

Unknown:

lives. Right. And just, and just to be aware of the environment

Unknown:

that you're working in it,

Unknown:

it's really not, we're not back to where it

Unknown:

was, and I don't think we're ever going to go back. So from

Unknown:

that perspective, if you're looking at embarking on

Unknown:

something new, get make sure you're giving yourself the time

Unknown:

to pause. But also, what's really, really important and

Unknown:

what has helped me in the past is, have somebody that you can,

Unknown:

and have someone that is on the journey, a similar pathway as

Unknown:

yourself, because of being a founder, if you don't have a co

Unknown:

founder, which I don't, a lot of people have co founders which

Unknown:

can play that role. But if you don't, it's very isolating, and

Unknown:

it's very, it's a struggle, there's under a lot of pressure,

Unknown:

you're, you're stretched in about 10 different ways. So it's

Unknown:

important to have a network or somebody that you can say, hey,

Unknown:

this is where I'm, you know, a safe place, if you will, where

Unknown:

you can just really be vulnerable, like, that's going

Unknown:

to be really important. I didn't realize how isolating it was,

Unknown:

and a lot of founders talked about that. And so, that gets

Unknown:

your network set up that way, or at least start building it. Get

Unknown:

your finances in order, make sure you can handle this

Unknown:

journey. Be prepared to make those lifestyle changes. Start

Unknown:

living an entrepreneurial lifestyle six months before you

Unknown:

get out if you're thinking about it and see if you're okay with

Unknown:

that, like that means not eating out. That means eating at home.

Unknown:

avocado toast is actually very cheap to make at home and very

Unknown:

nutritious. It's not a shishi thing. It's very healthy and

Unknown:

very cheap. You know, you know, say goodbye to, you know,

Unknown:

splurging on, you know, if you're buying, you know, shoes,

Unknown:

if you're a shoe girl or a bag, um, you have one or two things,

Unknown:

luxury items, right? But, you know, be prepared, are you

Unknown:

willing to give up your credit score, so you can't buy a new

Unknown:

house? I can't my credit shot. I can't buy a house. If I wanted

Unknown:

to buy a new house, I couldn't do that I have a shitty credit.

Unknown:

Because I don't have an income. Right? Like I haven't had an

Unknown:

appreciable income. That's the realities of a founder of color

Unknown:

at least. Even if you get funding, right? Like let's say

Unknown:

they give you you're not going to pay yourself market right.

Unknown:

You know, you might you might pay yourself 100k 120k Maybe,

Unknown:

but in this day and age, that's not a lot.

Unknown:

Right? If that right. So,

Unknown:

um, so you know, there's a lot of things that you need to think

Unknown:

about, because it's if you're going to do this or even in

Unknown:

games, you got to be

Unknown:

prepared. Mentally, you have

Unknown:

to be prepared financially. Right and Then just it'd be

Unknown:

comfortable with that lifestyle. If you go to shows and concerts

Unknown:

in our budget accordingly

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, that's really salient. Yeah. It takes a

Lindsay Poss:

lot of gumption to start something. So having a good

Lindsay Poss:

support network and being prepared. It's really important.

Unknown:

For sure, yeah, it is. So um, thank you for the

Unknown:

opportunity to talk today.

Lindsay Poss:

Hey, I'm supposed to say that birds I was just

Lindsay Poss:

going to say that thank you so much for coming on. Where can

Lindsay Poss:

people find you follow you learned more about lights brake

Lindsay Poss:

light everything? Sure.

Unknown:

So we have a website like sprint.com Li T s pri

Unknown:

t.com. So you can learn more about us there. We have a

Unknown:

YouTube channel with some contents and webinars and other

Unknown:

stuff and pitches we've done. We also are on Twitter at at light

Unknown:

sprite games. You could follow me on Twitter, it's my first and

Unknown:

last name at Swathi survey. And well we have a LinkedIn page

Unknown:

like Sprite LinkedIn page and a Facebook page as well. So we're

Unknown:

not interested people just and also just given all the adverse

Unknown:

health things that Instagram does that really into I don't

Unknown:

think socks a little look good with the filter. So

Lindsay Poss:

I think socks lifted no matter what. Um, for

Lindsay Poss:

all the listeners out there, thank you so much for joining us

Lindsay Poss:

today. Be sure to leave those five star ratings and reviews

Lindsay Poss:

and helps other people find us. Check out other holodeck media

Lindsay Poss:

podcasts, including better business and business esports.

Lindsay Poss:

I'm on Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. You catch me Wednesday

Lindsay Poss:

afternoons on the business of esports live after show this

Lindsay Poss:

podcast and your feed every week. We'll see you next week.

Unknown:

Thanks for joining us here on meta woman. Make sure to

Unknown:

subscribe to this podcast everywhere you get your

Unknown:

podcasts, leave a five star review and tell your friends,

Unknown:

family and colleagues all about us. Also, make sure to follow

Unknown:

metta TV on all socials to get more of the best Metaverse

Unknown:

content anywhere. Tune in every week for another episode of

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About the Podcast

META Woman
Weekly metaverse content - for women, by women
Meta Woman will focus on addressing the issues, opportunities, and challenges facing women in the development of the Metaverse. Top female executives and business people operating within the gaming and crypto industries bring a wide range of perspectives through regular guest appearances.