Episode 43

full
Published on:

4th Oct 2022

43. It's a Game Changer

Joining the show today is Ashley Washington, the Game Changers EMEA Product Manager at Riot, where she works on building spaces for folks in marginalized genders to play, compete, and have fun. We talk about Game Changers, and how it creates a safe space for women who are interested in competitive play and removing some of the negative factors that often keep them from progressing and finding further opportunities. Plus, we both get to flex a little about our foreign language skills (Ashley is the far more talented one in that department).

Episode Resources:

https://www.theloadout.com/valorant/game-changers-ashley-washington-interview 

Transcript
Unknown:

Welcome to the meadow woman podcast. We address the

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issues, opportunities and challenges facing women in the

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development of the metaverse the biggest revolution since the

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internet itself. Every week we bring you conversations with top

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female talent and business executives operating in the

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gaming and crypto industries. Here's your host Lindsey, the

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boss POS, the meta woman podcast starts now.

Lindsay Poss:

Hello, and welcome to the meta woman podcast part

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of the holodeck media Podcast Network. I'm your host Lindsay

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the boss POS and from struggle to success. We're covering it

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all. To our returning listeners. You hear me say this every week.

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But thank you so much for supporting the show. For all the

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new listeners, please come back. I would love to have you today

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we're welcoming a major guest from a company that hopefully

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all of you have heard of. And if not, I don't know where you've

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been living. Ashley Washington is the game changers e m e a

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product manager at Riot, where she works on building spaces for

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folks and marginalized genders to play compete and have fun.

Lindsay Poss:

Ashley, I'm so excited to welcome you to the show, I'm

Lindsay Poss:

giving you a short introduction because I would love for you to

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tell the audience about what you do at Riot, what EMBA stands for

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and how you enjoy it.

Unknown:

Thank you. I'm looking forward to being able to explain

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all of those things.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, give me a little quick background on what

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you currently do and and how you like it and all that stuff.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah.

Unknown:

So I guess the outward facing response to that is that

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I'm the product manager for game changers, which is a program

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that essentially supplements the valorant competitive season by

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providing a tournament in order to create new opportunities for

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women in the valorant esports community. What that actually

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translates to in the day to day is kind of a combination of me

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touching base with players and teams and people in the company

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about how things have gone. So far, what we're trying to do

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with the tournament, dreaming up the best version of this and

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figuring out how we can get it done. I do refer to this as

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professional dreaming, because a lot of the time this is me

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coming up with the craziest, most amazing version of this

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tournament and then kind of stress testing it against the

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limits and what people actually want and things like this. But

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it's actually quite fun work. And at the end of the day, the

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product is this really killer competitive experience for the

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large amount of women in the Ballarat community that we have

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anemia.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah. Can you tell me what the acronym is? And how

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to do that properly? Everyone else knows, I guess like, is it

Lindsay Poss:

EME? Or do they have like a fun way of making that into a word?

Lindsay Poss:

And you just said the word. So do it again?

Unknown:

Yeah, Amina is massive. It's Europe, its Middle East.

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And it's Africa. This makes it sound like there's like a lot

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more in there than we actually deal with. But there are

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obviously like some key countries in the space that we

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deal with more so and then areas you just won't really see pop

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up, at least not at this stage. I hope later.

Lindsay Poss:

I've never heard them grouped together in this

Lindsay Poss:

way. So that's interesting. You know, we talked about like na

Lindsay Poss:

and SA, but never the EMEA region.

Unknown:

Did not so new for me. Yeah,

Lindsay Poss:

none of my international relations classes

Lindsay Poss:

included the EMEA region, it said in in that way. So that

Lindsay Poss:

makes a lot more sense. I want to get into your history, how

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you made it into gaming. But let's start just by telling me

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about what you do with the game changes program from a high

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level perspective, like what the organization does. And from a UI

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perspective, I know you went into this a little bit with

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being a professional dreamer and following up with teams and all

Lindsay Poss:

that, but would love to get kind of more of a high level

Lindsay Poss:

overview. And then if you could just go even into more of what

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you do and what you enjoy, I guess.

Unknown:

Yeah, I think one thing that's really good to note here

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is that valorant, as a game, and its community is already so

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massive, and so diverse, there are a pretty large number of

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women playing valorant. And it was sort of a natural

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opportunity, I think, to provide the competitive space for those

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women as well. If you look at the esports industry as a whole,

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you see that there's clearly a disparity and the amount of

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women in the main rosters in the professional space and the women

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that are playing the game at the highest skill levels. So game

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changers is basically meant to address this in a way, not only

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providing the platform for the women who are playing valorant

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To play competitively, but also to give them a chance to build

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their skills. If this is something that they want to do.

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This is something that's also very important to my work, I

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think on the on the low level as far as like what this ends up

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looking like in terms of what I actually do. It's a lot of

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listening. I would say I'm I'm on social media, talking to

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other people in the company. They might not even be working

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on valorant they might be working in league or something

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kind of just to pull information about their own experiences.

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There are opinions and their ideas about how to create a

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space within the Ballarat ecosystem that not only

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satisfies this need for more female talent, but also helps us

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truly serve the women in the space in a way that actually

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helps them. Because in many ways, you would think that just

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like making a tournament and saying only women can play in

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this is enough. But there are so many aspects to this. And that

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would say the opposite. Essentially, this is not enough

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that there needs to be growth opportunity, there needs to be

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support, there are a number of sensitivities to pay attention

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to when it comes to having women in the exact same structures

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that exist in esports already, and this is the kind of stuff

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that I look at the opportunity itself to create the tournament,

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and also the nuances that we have to process and figuring out

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what makes this the best case scenario for a woman in the

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valorant ecosystem.

Lindsay Poss:

We're definitely gonna dive more into that too, I

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want to just back up for a second because one of the topics

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that's come up on this podcast, specifically so many times, and

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I've actually used valorant, and league as examples, is talking

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about building a culture from the ground up, versus changing a

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culture that already exists. Obviously, when valorant came

Lindsay Poss:

out, it was huge. It was right, it was their second major

Lindsay Poss:

project after League, the league has been around for a decade or

Lindsay Poss:

two now at this point, or we're really creeping up there. So I

Lindsay Poss:

would love from your perspective from someone who is at Riot and

Lindsay Poss:

working in valorant, just to know what you think about

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changing systems that are already in place versus building

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brand new systems and what you think are the pros and cons to

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kind of both approach. Obviously, you are working in

Lindsay Poss:

building a new system. And so I'm hoping that you're going to

Lindsay Poss:

say that you think that's more fun and interesting, just

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because that's the project that you're on. But I would love to

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know just what you think about that kind of changing what's

Lindsay Poss:

already there versus building completely from scratch, which

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one companies should or what strategies other companies

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should kind of consider for addressing kind of the

Lindsay Poss:

structural issues you talked about in both scenarios? And

Lindsay Poss:

which one you think is more fun to work on?

Unknown:

That's a really good question, I have to say, and

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maybe this is an unconventional approach. But when I came into

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riot as a person with a variety of different products, and my

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background, I looked at this as something very unique and fresh.

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And I actually did not necessarily take a comparative

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perspective, because I saw myself walking into even if it

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is a new game, something that already exists. And I think that

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the best way to describe this would actually be more in the

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industry context. Because you could flavor this any way you

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want. I mean, this could be any game you want. But if you look

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at the space as a whole, a lot of the issues that we see, are

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actually replicating themselves. And I see the titles and looking

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at those titles and specificity of their communities to be sort

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of an obscuring factor, and in many cases, and honestly,

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sometimes a crutch for kind of excusing repetitive behaviors

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that kind of perpetuate the issues that we're seeing. So I

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think one of the things that I looked at that I that I honestly

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recommend most companies or organizations look at in

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general, when approaching this is really that the system that

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exists is the industry itself, we are both inadvertently and

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sometimes deliberately perpetuating the problems that

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are appearing there, whether that's predominantly male

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rosters in the game, or predominantly male management

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teams in an organization. For example, in the esports.

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Industry, this stuff all feeds into itself. And I think one of

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the really important things to think about in terms of the

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competitive space for valor and how to approach how I

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approached, figuring out how to sort of improve it, I guess,

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would be a better way to describe it is really that we

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need to a create visibility around these issues. And I think

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sometimes the best way to do that is to try to do something

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and highlight the problems that we're facing, for example, be

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open about the issues that we run into in the process. And

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also to create, most importantly, not just a

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competitive space, but a safe space for the women that are in

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the space to engage with because the safe space should really

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exist across the board. One would argue that the system

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itself should be safe enough space that the women don't need

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the safe space to begin with. Right. And I think that once

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that safe space is created, it's then important to see how you

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can incentivize the development of that safe space and its

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effectiveness. Because in some ways, the safe space being there

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isn't enough. There has to be sort of like an awareness of why

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it's needed constantly because to this day, I guarantee you,

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regardless of which organization is run any initiative that there

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will be people criticizing whether or not it makes sense to

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create a space that's just for women, you know, is that

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perpetuating the problem is this, you know, making it worse

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that you like, create a safe space where only women can play

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and no men can be, for example, is that anti diversity, for

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example, essentially, with game changers, we look at this, and

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we try to highlight the fact that women entering the space

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are not entering the space on even footing. So the safe space

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is essentially necessary, so that they can build the same

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skills that male players have, without dealing with the stuff

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that keeps them from already being there. So the toxicity and

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the preference for men on the teams and stuff like this, they

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develop those skills there, they test those skills against other

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women in the community community is built to share experiences Hi

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is highlighted, which in turn, increases resilience for the

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space, I would say. So the ability to face that adversity,

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and feel comfortable doing it to know that your your presence is

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warranted and supported by in this case, a major organization

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with a great title that you're engaging with, and that this

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should then translate to a more diverse industry in general, I

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would say any organization or company that's looking at this

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issue, should really think not only about Hey, are we including

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women, but are we setting them up for success? Are we just

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introducing women to the space and expecting that they succeed?

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Because they have the opportunity? Or are we really

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setting them up to take advantage of the same things

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that male players have in this space? Are they going to be at

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the right skill level to space success here to see success

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here? Are they going to be able to endure the obstacles that

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might exist in the space? Are they mentally prepared things

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like this? These are the questions that really have to be

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asked. Because I think in general, in terms of initiatives

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like this for women, you have to move beyond the baseline. And I

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think that it's an uncomfortable pill to swallow. But the

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baseline is the existence of the space. It really is. The

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existence is baseline, that's MVP, okay, it's the first thing,

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but you have to iterate, you have to make sure it's a space,

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where you're also equipping those who are disadvantaged with

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the capacity and ability to see real success and know that the

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promise that we're making is one that we're ready to follow up

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on. That makes

Lindsay Poss:

sense to me. And so funny that you bring that up,

Lindsay Poss:

because one of the conversations I was having yesterday, someone

Lindsay Poss:

had pointed out that problem curation is one of the key or is

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basically the starting point for actually solving the problem. So

Lindsay Poss:

with what you're talking about, it's like figuring out exactly

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how or kind of that point at which women are stopping their

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progression and addressing those issues. It's so interesting that

Lindsay Poss:

this problem curation thing has kind of come up for me like

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very, very many times recently, because I think that a lot of

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women I've talked to on the show have basically said progress is

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happening, but it's a lot slower than we expected. And I think

Lindsay Poss:

part of the reason for that slowdown is that you're right,

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that there's this sense that Well, women can play

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competitively now. So there's this this kind of equality. And

Lindsay Poss:

you were the actually the one who taught me about this, this

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framework that there's this, this equality that Oh, women can

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play now, but there's not there's not the equity and what

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opportunities are available, and what skills are developed in how

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environments are framed to be welcoming to women who are

Lindsay Poss:

learning how to play the game. And so that was so interesting

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for me, like kind of putting those two things together with

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problem curation and equity versus equality. I feel like so

Lindsay Poss:

many of the women I talked to you now i can i can think back

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on those conversations and think they are happy that there is

Lindsay Poss:

equality and unhappy that the equity portion hasn't been

Lindsay Poss:

addressed. And that is the the slowdown in the movement that

Lindsay Poss:

we've had. I don't know if that does that make sense to you? As

Lindsay Poss:

the one who taught me this?

Unknown:

That's exactly it. It's Yes, it's the it's the missing

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ingredient? In most cases where it's like, okay, I mean, the

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tournament is there, what's the issue? You know, they're trying

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to leave the tournament and do other parts of the ecosystem,

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and they're not finding success? Why, for example, can we be

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thinking about ways to make it easier for women to move from

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Game Changers into the rest of the ecosystem, so that they're

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prepared to do that? Sometimes it's not even just about skill.

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Sometimes the skill is there, okay. But, you know, current

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rule sets would say that if you're participating in one part

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of the ecosystem, you can't appear in another part of it

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like in another tournament circuit. With game changers, for

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example, we've taken steps to make it so that a game changers

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participant can actually be in other parts of the ecosystem

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that they want to. That's not a rule that exists for other

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players in the ecosystem. That's what equity looks like.

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Sometimes equity is not like, it's the same for everybody.

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Sometimes you have to make sure that the disadvantaged group has

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the boost that they need to match the rest. And these are

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kind of the tough decisions that you have to make In order to

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like actually see success manifested in the space, I would

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say,

Lindsay Poss:

How are advertisers, sponsors, companies

Lindsay Poss:

who want to partner all of that, reacting to the creation of this

Lindsay Poss:

program? I mean, what I'm hoping you're gonna say is tons of

Lindsay Poss:

people are on board, and they're backing up their word. And

Lindsay Poss:

everyone's super committed to making game changers work. I

Lindsay Poss:

know that there's I asked this, because there's obviously a lot

Lindsay Poss:

of tide and push towards social change in all kinds of

Lindsay Poss:

directions. And we do see companies sort of stepping up.

Lindsay Poss:

But as we all know that those promises can also be a little

Lindsay Poss:

empty, or maybe not as supportive. So as the person

Lindsay Poss:

who's kind of overseeing this program and helping develop it,

Lindsay Poss:

what are you finding with with outside companies coming in?

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, all the all those, you know, sponsored collaborators,

Lindsay Poss:

all that stuff.

Unknown:

And my experience, the reaction is pretty positive. And

Unknown:

I think one reason that this is the case is because the problem

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that we're seeing in the esports ecosystems are not unique to the

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esports ecosystems, they're seen in the tech space in general,

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and in a range of other industries, it's a relatable

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problem, I guess, is a good way to put it. And I think a lot of

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times what you see, especially if the sponsors are in the tech

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industry as well, is that this is also an important message for

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them to be expressing in a way to show support for the game

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changers initiative. Because I think the hope is that it speaks

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to their intentions as well as as as their own organization.

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And I feel like this is a really great I hate to use this word.

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It's a great synergy and purpose, honestly, that matches

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up does anybody like using the word synergy? I I think it's a

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really good matchup honestly, like the ability to say, hey,

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you know, and especially with initiative, when you like, agree

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to sponsor initiative, hey, we're all like committed to

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figuring this out together and making sure that the resources

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are there to do so one of my hopes is that we see more

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sponsors for other non gaming industries coming into, you

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know, engaged with the initiative, because I think

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this, this just makes the message larger, I honestly think

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that's really great. So what I've seen is actually really

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great reaction, I think it's always a question of like, is

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the initiative going to have enough money and stuff because

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usually, these things aren't going to be like the biggest

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moneymaker in the portfolio. But I think when partners and

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sponsors show up to, you know, demonstrate that common belief,

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by supporting the initiative in various capacities, we're seeing

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exactly what we would like to see we do something like this,

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the effect kind of ripple throughout.

Lindsay Poss:

That's so wonderful. Very, very glad to

Lindsay Poss:

hear that. Also, what is it been like from the team perspective?

Lindsay Poss:

Are you having a lot of teams reach out to you? Are you

Lindsay Poss:

helping to develop teams? What has the response been like, from

Lindsay Poss:

people who actually play like, I, again, I'm hoping that

Lindsay Poss:

there's, you know, 1000, people clamoring to get your attention

Lindsay Poss:

and join game changers. But what's that kind of been like

Lindsay Poss:

from from building building up the competition, not that side

Lindsay Poss:

of it,

Unknown:

honestly, it's great. I think it's also complicated. So

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you have like a few perspectives. When it comes to

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teams, you're gonna have people coming from a lot of different

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backgrounds. And I think this is maybe one of the most

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interesting parts, because having worked in esports,

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before, I would say, I'm not like a stranger to orcs and

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teams. But coming into the game changer space, you see a variety

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of different types of orgs, and teams, some have really big

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organizations behind them that also have main teams. And you

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know, they're already making a nice amount of money. And then

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some are, you know, girls that got together that are in school

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together to you know, play. And then some are like organizations

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that maybe aren't as successful, but are hoping to find success

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in the game changer space. So reception varies depending on

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like, what the team is hoping to get out of the experience, I

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would say, overwhelmingly positive for sure. And this is

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something I'm so excited to see. And one of the reasons I was so

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excited to take this position is because there's so many people

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in the community who are just enamored by the initiative, they

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love it, and it's something that they're very attached to. And I

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think that with that passion and attachment also comes, you know,

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some demands, and I think that they're totally valid, you know,

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these are the people we want to be listening to, honestly, when

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it comes to this whole game changer setup, really, because,

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you know, we set out to create a safe space for women to engage

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in the competitive environment. And if they don't feel like

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they're able to do that, or if they feel like it's not

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something we're delivering on, then this is exactly the kind of

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thing we would like to hear. So I have to say, while it's

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overwhelmingly positive, it's also sometimes very tough, and

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that's good. I welcome this I welcome the feedback. I welcome

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the criticism because in general, I think that this helps

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us a lot. And I hope that in many ways, we're able to figure

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out what a mature game changers environment looks like. I think

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right now it's early days, this is our I want to say, third

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year, who's to say what a mature, like timespan of a

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tournament really looks like. But I think in our case, we're

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really still trying to figure out what our community looks

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like where their skills are, where they need the most help,

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how we can help them best. So I would say that we're not

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necessarily in a super mature place. So all of this feedback

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that we're getting is going to help us figure out what people

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really want from it. Do they want it to look like the VRL? Do

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they want something completely unique, unique to game changers

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and unique to the game changers experience? This is what we want

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to find out. And this feedback, positive or negative is how we

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get there. But I do have to say, I was very proud to walk into a

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role where people are already in love with the tournament,

Unknown:

because this is very inspiring for me. Yeah,

Lindsay Poss:

it's kind of sounds like you have Well, I'm

Lindsay Poss:

gonna put it in basketball terms, because I'm a former

Lindsay Poss:

basketball player. So I I play pickup games on Tuesday nights.

Lindsay Poss:

They're very fun, but also terrible on Wednesday mornings.

Lindsay Poss:

Um, so I play with a bunch of people I grew up with very

Lindsay Poss:

casual pickup. And then obviously, we go all the way up

Lindsay Poss:

to the NBA. It sounds like that's kind of that's kind of

Lindsay Poss:

where you are with the kinds of people that you're bringing in,

Lindsay Poss:

you have very casual, loosely organized teams all the way up

Lindsay Poss:

to well built, well organized in complex organizations. So how

Lindsay Poss:

are you creating programs, tournaments, events, boot camps,

Lindsay Poss:

whatever it may be, and balancing the needs of all those

Lindsay Poss:

folks.

Unknown:

This is the question of the year like, literally, this

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is what I'm trying to think about right now. So we have to

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evolve this setup in general. Right now we have a tournament

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where people can come to play, which is great. This is so good

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already, it really is I don't want anybody to be like it's not

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great, because it's amazing. But what we do need to do, I think,

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in many ways, is figuring out, you know, what's the next step

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to growing more of the talent in the space? So we have like a

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couple of really dominant teams right now. How do we get more

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teams that are dominating? How do we add to the space right

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now, it seems like skill disparity is a thing. So I would

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love to be able to create more opportunities to help players

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grow their skills, for example, or maybe do more of like a

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sharing of knowledge, because right has a really great

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platform for this. There's all kinds of stuff I think that we

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can offer in terms of knowledge to like help people feel more

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equipped for this space as well. I really think there's so many

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options. And honestly, I haven't been able to make any decisions

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yet. But this is one of the questions I'm asking myself

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every day. And when I talk to the to the teams and the

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players. This is my favorite part really getting to talk to

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the game changers players, because they have so many ideas

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for what they would like to see. And it honestly feels like there

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are a lot of really great options. And it's really just

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about picking the options that fit the community best. Yeah, I

Lindsay Poss:

think that that's I mean, that's super fair. If

Lindsay Poss:

you could have answered if you could have given me a perfect

Lindsay Poss:

answer for that, then I don't know you would? I don't know.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, that's like that. That is the idea. So I wasn't I

Lindsay Poss:

definitely wasn't expecting that. I also think that yeah,

Lindsay Poss:

what you said, it's important to note that things are still

Lindsay Poss:

great, even when they're evolving. And honestly, things

Lindsay Poss:

are better when people are also taking a look and seeing how you

Lindsay Poss:

can continuously improve and build. So that was I was

Lindsay Poss:

definitely not expecting you to have like a eight point plan. On

Lindsay Poss:

that one. Let's speaking of let's pivot a little bit and

Lindsay Poss:

actually talk about you because this is unfortunate, but it's

Lindsay Poss:

not every day that I get to meet a black woman who works for her

Lindsay Poss:

major triple A publisher, I know that there's been a huge push

Lindsay Poss:

from publishers more recently, especially in the wake of a

Lindsay Poss:

whole lot of bad news to work on these things. That still doesn't

Lindsay Poss:

mean I've read these statistics on the show so many times and

Lindsay Poss:

anyone can Google them. But that doesn't mean that the push is

Lindsay Poss:

necessarily translating into into results that we would like

Lindsay Poss:

to see at the moment. So prior to riot, were you finding it

Lindsay Poss:

difficult to break into the games industry? And how do you

Lindsay Poss:

think that we can get more people who look like you into

Lindsay Poss:

the games industry?

Unknown:

Yes, I have to say that. There were a lot of

Unknown:

difficulties I had getting into gaming. I think that they were

Unknown:

kind of for a variety of reasons I came in from a non tech

Unknown:

background. And a lot of times when you want to get into games

Unknown:

that helps have a tech background, there are still ways

Unknown:

to get in. This is one thing I definitely have to say for

Unknown:

anybody wanting to get in there are still ways the obvious thing

Unknown:

to remember there is that not everybody in the gaming industry

Unknown:

is a developer. So this is one of the things that I had to

Unknown:

remember when trying to get in and what this required of me at

Unknown:

the time was to essentially kind of take a step back in my career

Unknown:

level. I was As a mid level account manager for a dating

Unknown:

company before I got into the gaming industry, and my first

Unknown:

job in gaming was to test apps as a QA analyst, which can be

Unknown:

technical, but it's not like, you know, quintessentially

Unknown:

technical I thought I was going to be, I thought I was going to

Unknown:

be a developer. This is how I this how I ended up there. What

Unknown:

was the hardest thing I think, in the whole process, and this

Unknown:

is even back when I was studying game design, is that I think

Unknown:

that even if it's not mean spirited, that sometimes people

Unknown:

just don't expect women to know as much as men do in the space.

Unknown:

I mean, I studied game design at New York University, which was

Unknown:

an excellent game design program. And even when I was a

Unknown:

gaming journalist, after studying a writing heavy thing,

Unknown:

as well, so twice credited, credited here, I was still

Unknown:

feeling like I had to validate my knowledge all the time, like

Unknown:

people just could not believe that I really knew what I was

Unknown:

talking about, even after writing the articles and things

Unknown:

like this. That was still something I think that I dealt

Unknown:

with a lot of times in the earlier part of my career, which

Unknown:

was exhausting and oftentimes made me doubt myself, I have to

Unknown:

say i There were definitely times where I considered

Unknown:

leaving. But I think one of the things that I kept in mind, and

Unknown:

one of the things I tell so many people who are from

Unknown:

disadvantaged backgrounds, and also underrepresented groups

Unknown:

that want to get into gaming, or tech is that presence is also a

Unknown:

win, because sometimes it's hard to move up. And sometimes it

Unknown:

takes a long time. And sometimes the plan is unclear. Or you try

Unknown:

and it doesn't work in some spaces, hard work might not be

Unknown:

enough, sometimes you just have to make a move. But being there

Unknown:

is already worth so much. Because there's somebody out

Unknown:

there who looks like you who isn't sure if they can make that

Unknown:

move. And when they see you there year after year, month

Unknown:

after month, whatever the timescale is, I'm looking at you

Unknown:

six months in a company and the company goes down girlies,

Unknown:

that's also a win, by the way. Been there. Presence is so so so

Unknown:

valuable. And this is this is something that I think is really

Unknown:

key to thriving in an environment that isn't

Unknown:

necessarily made for you, because a lot of these setups

Unknown:

just aren't made to accommodate women, sometimes you get in

Unknown:

there. And like there aren't the right fixtures in the company to

Unknown:

address the mental issues you might be dealing with, or the

Unknown:

right kinds of like HR layers to deal with some of the

Unknown:

discrimination you might face things like this, I have to say,

Unknown:

I feel really lucky to be where I am now, because there were

Unknown:

lots of environments that weren't great for me that I kind

Unknown:

of stuck out. And while I'm saying right now that presence

Unknown:

is a win, it is not a loss. If you leave, pick your fights,

Unknown:

because your well being is sometimes not worth it either.

Unknown:

But I will say that even if you feel like you're struggling, in

Unknown:

general, it's one of those things that I think is important

Unknown:

to internalize as a sign of strength and to see other people

Unknown:

around you that do find excess success. And this is something

Unknown:

that really helped me a lot to see other women in positions of

Unknown:

management in gaming, or as developers and things like this,

Unknown:

this really helped me because it reminded me that I could do

Unknown:

this, that someone has done it before. But this is not in fact

Unknown:

impossible, even though it feels impossible. And then if you're

Unknown:

hitting a stone wall, where you are that maybe the door is

Unknown:

somewhere else, you know that maybe it's just about a change

Unknown:

of perspective or a change of place. And that it's still

Unknown:

possible. It's not always your skills, I had a really great

Unknown:

degree and went to a really great program. And it still was

Unknown:

not enough for people, I urge pretty much anybody in my

Unknown:

position to not immediately buy it if someone lays it down on

Unknown:

your skills, because a variety of skills are required in this

Unknown:

space, all the skills, almost almost all of the skills, there

Unknown:

is a place if you want to be here. So this is what I would

Unknown:

have to say you have to keep in mind in general. And then

Unknown:

secondarily that mental health is first. So I mean, if it's not

Unknown:

working, it doesn't mean that doors closed forever, right. But

Unknown:

if this is not healthy, then you're going to have problems

Unknown:

anyway.

Lindsay Poss:

I think that's all important just because like I

Lindsay Poss:

had graduated from an elite university with a bachelor's and

Lindsay Poss:

a master's and applied for, I think 120 jobs and got one call

Lindsay Poss:

back. So it's like it doesn't matter what your qualifications

Lindsay Poss:

are sometimes like, there's a little bit of luck involved.

Lindsay Poss:

There's a little bit of just continuing to try involved.

Lindsay Poss:

Certainly things never go the way you want them to. And I

Lindsay Poss:

actually want to talk a little bit more about that because you

Lindsay Poss:

you've mentioned your education. You mentioned you're a games

Lindsay Poss:

journalist. I know you had a couple other positions before

Lindsay Poss:

joining Riot and I know that you're very close to actually

Lindsay Poss:

leaving the games industry before joining riot So what has

Lindsay Poss:

been the thing that's kind of kept you going kept you in the

Lindsay Poss:

games industry? I know that this position getting this position

Lindsay Poss:

was kind of one thing. But also what has this kind of variety of

Lindsay Poss:

experiences? How has that been able to help you where you're

Lindsay Poss:

currently at?

Unknown:

It starts with my humanities degree that everybody

Unknown:

told me was useless. I'm just kidding. Okay. But did help me,

Unknown:

I would have to say that the thing that kept me going was

Unknown:

really remembering how much it meant to me to see other people

Unknown:

thriving in the space is really what kept me going. I refused to

Unknown:

have to take a job where I wasn't in super enthusiastic

Unknown:

about what I was working on. And so even when I was considering

Unknown:

leaving the gaming industry, that was still a focus for me,

Unknown:

like making sure that I'm close to something I love, and like

Unknown:

you said, at the end of the day, that worked out, but it was

Unknown:

really about focusing on evidence to disprove what was

Unknown:

becoming an overly negative assumption that I had that I

Unknown:

would not find success or happiness in the space because

Unknown:

there was just so much difficulty. So again, focusing

Unknown:

like on those examples, and really trying to gather the will

Unknown:

to find a way no matter what I think one thing that's amazing

Unknown:

about the industry is that there are so many approaches to

Unknown:

sticking around and finding a fit. And even if you feel like

Unknown:

your best strength is like scheduling things. Hello,

Unknown:

esports, this is a

Lindsay Poss:

nice need to be organized. I'm Harry Bay. So

Lindsay Poss:

yes, you're out there and build an organization?

Unknown:

Absolutely, absolutely. There is a place and this is

Unknown:

this is I would say, what kept me going the most? Well, I feel

Unknown:

very positive about my experience. In general, I will

Unknown:

say it wasn't always very clear what the positive was, it can be

Unknown:

very easy to like latch on to the negative examples or the

Unknown:

negative things that are happening in the space, but they

Unknown:

are people trying really, really, really hard to fix this.

Unknown:

And there are people who are willing to do the hard work to

Unknown:

do it, even if it doesn't always look like the right thing. And

Unknown:

this harkens back to my comment about equity and how sometimes

Unknown:

things have to be set up a little bit differently, putting

Unknown:

in the extra work to find more women putting in the extra work

Unknown:

to find people of varying cultural backgrounds. There are

Unknown:

people out there doing that this is not a done deal for the

Unknown:

gaming industry. Even if you hear like really terrible

Unknown:

stories. There's so much happening, there's really so

Unknown:

much happening. And this is this is what had me holding on

Lindsay Poss:

speaking of kind of like holding on getting

Lindsay Poss:

through background, all that stuff. The last question is what

Lindsay Poss:

I'm so excited to ask you about. I've been thinking about this

Lindsay Poss:

since I met you. I'm super pumped to talk about this. Given

Lindsay Poss:

that your path has been unconventional, I definitely

Lindsay Poss:

want to talk a bit about you studying German, which hasn't

Lindsay Poss:

come up yet. I would love to talk about how how or if that's

Lindsay Poss:

helped in your career. And I'm asking for three reasons. One is

Lindsay Poss:

that I also love languages and I have studied Russian and I speak

Lindsay Poss:

Spanish pretty proficiently, it was just really fun, I think

Lindsay Poss:

learning to is that I think languages can be a great way to

Lindsay Poss:

learn a lot of skill sets, including like literal

Lindsay Poss:

communication and patience when you don't have the words. And

Lindsay Poss:

three, I think this is kind of an important lesson in in what

Lindsay Poss:

you just said and pursuing what you want to pursue, and what

Lindsay Poss:

you're good at and what you're passionate about. Just because

Lindsay Poss:

the caveat, of course is that you have to have the means and

Lindsay Poss:

the resources to indulge in that kind of learning. But yes, so

Lindsay Poss:

let's talk about German. The fact that you live in Germany's

Lindsay Poss:

I'm assuming that you actually use the language that you

Lindsay Poss:

studied, and how it may have helped you in your career.

Unknown:

Yes, there are so many layers to that. But I think like

Unknown:

their key layers. So like as a person learning German, which is

Unknown:

a pretty difficult language, honestly taught me a lot about

Unknown:

how language and its conventions can give you a lot of insight

Unknown:

into the way a culture is set up as well. And people have like a

Unknown:

lot of stereotypes about Germans, you know, being

Unknown:

obsessed with rules and stuff. I mean, the language has a lot of

Unknown:

rules. I'm not gonna lie. But there's also like a frankness

Unknown:

and an honesty to the language. You're

Lindsay Poss:

talking to a Russian speaker. So like it's

Lindsay Poss:

cool. Exactly,

Unknown:

exactly. So it's one of those things that helped me get

Unknown:

into the culture so easily. Which sounds really nice because

Unknown:

it's German. But actually, when you look at how one language

Unknown:

translates itself onto its culture, you realize that

Unknown:

there's so much that you don't know about other cultures. Of

Unknown:

course, you have this assumption Anyway, okay, like I'm not I'm

Unknown:

not Chinese, for example. So I don't know a lot about Chinese

Unknown:

people and Chinese culture, of course, but I mean on different

Unknown:

there's like a different layer where you realize how much

Unknown:

complexity there is to things like language barriers, and

Unknown:

intention, and like the way someone approaches

Unknown:

communication, one One culture might prefer more explicit

Unknown:

context for things, another culture might, you know, perform

Unknown:

more implicit context. There's a really great book called the

Unknown:

Culture Map about this, by the way, I love it. But language to

Unknown:

me has always been super important to understanding how

Unknown:

to communicate with other people, even if you're not

Unknown:

speaking their language. And I have to say that for me, this

Unknown:

first gave me the competence to be able to leave the US and to

Unknown:

pursue a career in Germany, because in general, I just

Unknown:

became less afraid of not knowing, I became more confident

Unknown:

about not making assumptions about my surroundings, and kind

Unknown:

of just leaning in to where I am. And then immersing myself in

Unknown:

the in the context. I mean, there's still things that I

Unknown:

prefer as an American, but I feel far less judgy, about

Unknown:

things that don't match up, for example. And when it comes to my

Unknown:

work, I would say I've been lucky to work in global

Unknown:

companies. And when we say global here, we mean that they

Unknown:

speak English. But this does not stop me from speaking German

Unknown:

with my German coworkers, which is always really fun, because

Unknown:

nobody expects me to speak German. This is probably for a

Unknown:

variety of reasons. But I do enjoy the initial surprise when

Unknown:

people realize that I do understand German fluently. And

Unknown:

one thing that helps with my work at Riot specifically, is

Unknown:

that AMEA has so many countries in it, and no, I do not speak

Unknown:

the language of all of those countries. However, it has made

Unknown:

me realize the importance of extending the presence of the

Unknown:

tournament, not just as it is, but in ways that leverage

Unknown:

national identity a bit better in those spaces. We have so many

Unknown:

people playing the game, for example, in Turkey. And I've

Unknown:

been thinking about ways that we can like highlight the stories

Unknown:

of players in Turkey, for example, highlight the stories

Unknown:

of the teams in Turkey, or even as simple as we have regions

Unknown:

that don't tend to get broadcast in their language. Can we get a

Unknown:

broadcast in their language this year? You know, that kind of

Unknown:

thing. So my openness with German, and hopefully other

Unknown:

languages one day, I'm looking, I'm trying to hit five by the

Unknown:

time I'm 40. But hey, I don't know, I think that my general

Unknown:

awareness and the setup has helped me a lot with just having

Unknown:

a more flexible and fluid approach to how we can adapt and

Unknown:

experience grown in a US based company to the regions that are

Unknown:

in EMEA where we have already a bunch of really amazing teams

Unknown:

participating. But the experience itself has not

Unknown:

necessarily adapted itself to the range of cultures yet, I

Unknown:

think that are in the space. And I'm looking forward to like

Unknown:

amping that up, you've already done such a great job of making

Unknown:

sure that they're like, multi language broadcasts, but I feel

Unknown:

like there's so much more potential and I'm like, really

Unknown:

looking forward to tapping into that, and maybe learning another

Unknown:

language along the way. I don't know.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah. So I wanna I want to do some like rapid fire

Lindsay Poss:

questions really quick, just because now I You have made me

Lindsay Poss:

so curious about a couple things. First, did you move to

Lindsay Poss:

Germany first, or get the job with riot and then move to

Lindsay Poss:

Germany?

Unknown:

Okay, Germany first 2016? Yes. Crazy. That's

Lindsay Poss:

awesome. So you've been there for a while. Second,

Lindsay Poss:

what are the five languages you're looking to learn

Unknown:

Portuguese, Brazilian, Portuguese? Korean, Japanese,

Unknown:

Russian, and probably an African language if I can. Oh, we're one

Unknown:

dying language. And African languages are a dying language.

Unknown:

Because I want to like, yeah, keep it out. Let it die credit.

Unknown:

Yeah, exactly.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, makes total sense. Well, if you ever need a

Lindsay Poss:

Russian speaking partner, I am here for you. And if you ever

Lindsay Poss:

learn any of the Romance languages?

Unknown:

Oh my gosh, yes, I will let you know.

Lindsay Poss:

That's awesome. 30. If you had to recommend

Lindsay Poss:

another language for people to learn, what would it be?

Unknown:

I would recommend German. Yeah. Everybody says

Unknown:

don't learn German. You should learn German German is great.

Unknown:

German is great. Everyone. German is great.

Lindsay Poss:

Good to know. Okay. Of course. Do you count?

Lindsay Poss:

Or how? I don't know exactly how to phrase this. But we'll we'll

Lindsay Poss:

get into it. Do you count programming languages as

Lindsay Poss:

languages?

Unknown:

I'm gonna I'm wondering if the listener will be critical

Unknown:

of this answer. I know a programming language. And I do

Unknown:

not consider it a language. I know people put this on like

Unknown:

their OKCupid profiles. I know C++. This is not LinkedIn. Okay.

Unknown:

Programming languages are not languages. Sorry.

Lindsay Poss:

Okay. What about what about made up languages?

Lindsay Poss:

What if you're Florence I'm losing all the names of them,

Lindsay Poss:

but a whole from things like Lord of the Rings.

Unknown:

Actually, I think these are more legitimate as like

Unknown:

language options and programming languages like Simlish for

Unknown:

example, I know Some very fluent English speakers if you're a

Unknown:

service fan, then you know another language. The language

Unknown:

from the like Game of Thrones, I think both Rocky. Okay, some

Unknown:

people know Dothraki Yes, fictional languages are a yes

Unknown:

for me.

Lindsay Poss:

Okay, so we are yes on fictional languages, no

Lindsay Poss:

programming languages, and very positive on German as language.

Unknown:

Yeah. Yes. Got a not biased at all.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, right? Definitely not. Okay. Well with

Lindsay Poss:

all that in mind, I am going to, hopefully very quickly summarize

Lindsay Poss:

everything that we talked about today, we started off with what

Lindsay Poss:

you're doing a game changers and providing competitive space for

Lindsay Poss:

women and valorant. And how it was natural, just because

Lindsay Poss:

there's so many women who are interested in playing competing

Lindsay Poss:

and building skills. If you look at the game space as a whole,

Lindsay Poss:

the issues are replicating themselves, whether it's a newer

Lindsay Poss:

game or an older game. And whether it's inadvertently or

Lindsay Poss:

intentionally, there's kind of this perpetual feed into the

Lindsay Poss:

problems just because we haven't necessarily addressed the

Lindsay Poss:

structures yet, in order to help that creating visibility, being

Lindsay Poss:

open about the problems can actually help solve them. In

Lindsay Poss:

order to help that creating safe spaces is critical. Eventually,

Lindsay Poss:

the hope is that you won't need that safe space because the

Lindsay Poss:

competitive environment will be balanced. But until then, what

Lindsay Poss:

game changers does and what creating that space can do is it

Lindsay Poss:

helps women and other marginalized people start off on

Lindsay Poss:

a footing where they can actually learn from their, from

Lindsay Poss:

their mistakes, learn through trial and error, learn just as

Lindsay Poss:

in the way that everybody learns competitive play. But without

Lindsay Poss:

that toxicity, without the difficulty needing to keep up

Lindsay Poss:

without the imposter syndrome, all the other things that keep

Lindsay Poss:

people from progressing further and finding more opportunities.

Lindsay Poss:

We talked a lot about problem curation, and what we had talked

Lindsay Poss:

about when I first met you, which was equality versus

Lindsay Poss:

equity. The problem now, while equality is definitely still a

Lindsay Poss:

problem in a lot of spaces, there are more opportunities out

Lindsay Poss:

there for women, but there's not necessarily inequity and how

Lindsay Poss:

women are able to take advantage of those opportunities, how

Lindsay Poss:

they're able to take advantage and even finding them building

Lindsay Poss:

the skills for them. All of that stuff that's out there. So it's

Lindsay Poss:

like, you know, giving someone a to me, it's almost like giving

Lindsay Poss:

someone manual car when they only drive automatic, and it's

Lindsay Poss:

like, well, you have a car now it's like but well, kind of need

Lindsay Poss:

to learn the manual part. That was also a very spontaneous

Lindsay Poss:

metaphor on my part. The problem is bigger than gaming, and it

Lindsay Poss:

goes into tech. So what you've been finding with programs,

Lindsay Poss:

sponsors, collaborators, partnerships, all that stuff, is

Lindsay Poss:

that companies are really excited to partner and then the

Lindsay Poss:

game changers program itself. And other programs like it are

Lindsay Poss:

having ripple effects further into not only the games

Lindsay Poss:

industry, but the tech industry. From the team perspective. So a

Lindsay Poss:

lot of different levels of organization. There's diversity

Lindsay Poss:

in players, there's diversity and competition levels. There's

Lindsay Poss:

all kinds of different people coming in, that you're meeting

Lindsay Poss:

with and bringing into game changers. In order to meet the

Lindsay Poss:

needs of everyone from casual to the highly professional. It's

Lindsay Poss:

important to constantly be evolving, constantly be

Lindsay Poss:

listening to feedback, doing that professional dream thing

Lindsay Poss:

that you do. And for the more competitive teams, there needs

Lindsay Poss:

to be more competition and more players at that higher level

Lindsay Poss:

competition. So growing the skills and sharing the knowledge

Lindsay Poss:

is what's happening at those uppermost levels and to try to

Lindsay Poss:

get more people into those uppermost levels. When you said

Lindsay Poss:

that it actually reminded me of Gino Arema, who is the coach of

Lindsay Poss:

the UConn women's basketball team. And UConn was so dominant

Lindsay Poss:

for so long that they're talking about removing them from the

Lindsay Poss:

NCAA tournament. And he said, No, no, you're not going to

Lindsay Poss:

automatically let us win, everyone else needs to get

Lindsay Poss:

better. And that's kind of what I think about with this. Adding

Lindsay Poss:

more competition to those high levels is great when trying to

Lindsay Poss:

get into the games industry. We talked a lot about your

Lindsay Poss:

background, and how you actually got in. Not everyone is a

Lindsay Poss:

developer, you can be a non technical person, women and

Lindsay Poss:

other underrepresented people have to consistently show their

Lindsay Poss:

knowledge. And I met was surprised at that knowledge, you

Lindsay Poss:

noted that you went to an awesome game development program

Lindsay Poss:

at NYU and worked as a games journalist and are still fending

Lindsay Poss:

off people who are surprised at what you know about games. But

Lindsay Poss:

being there being in the room showing off your knowledge being

Lindsay Poss:

present is valuable. Even if it takes you a long time, even if

Lindsay Poss:

the company goes under, even if there aren't great structures in

Lindsay Poss:

place being there is a win. Of course, you added the important

Lindsay Poss:

caveat this is for as long as you can maintain your mental

Lindsay Poss:

well being and are are relatively happy with your

Lindsay Poss:

position. We ended up with a discussion on languages, which

Lindsay Poss:

is my absolute favorite learning language can help you feel

Lindsay Poss:

comfortable with not knowing things with learning how to

Lindsay Poss:

communicate in all kinds of different ways with not making

Lindsay Poss:

assumptions about your surroundings, and it can help

Lindsay Poss:

you in being confident in building a career outside of the

Lindsay Poss:

US which you did and moved six years ago to Germany, which is

Lindsay Poss:

awesome. So the last section that we talked about, I'm going

Lindsay Poss:

to change a little bit just because you have done an awesome

Lindsay Poss:

job so far of reflecting on your career and on getting into games

Lindsay Poss:

and on being present. So I want to really actually direct this

Lindsay Poss:

at like your teenage self So what is one thing you would like

Lindsay Poss:

to tell your teenage self about getting into the gaming industry

Lindsay Poss:

and being successful? Like before, you know, any of the

Lindsay Poss:

experience that you've built up?

Unknown:

Um, yeah, this is a really great question. And one

Unknown:

that I get kind of often actually, when I was a teenager,

Unknown:

I didn't even consider working in games, because it just didn't

Unknown:

look like there was any possibility for me to work in

Unknown:

games, I grew up playing games only with the guys in my life,

Unknown:

never any of the girls, I didn't think I was ever going to

Unknown:

understand computers well enough to work in games. So this

Unknown:

question is always like, very emotional for me, because it

Unknown:

just wasn't something that was even in my head. I didn't I

Unknown:

loved games, then. And I wasn't even considering working with

Unknown:

them. So one of the most important things I would have to

Unknown:

say to my teenage self is that just because you don't see it

Unknown:

doesn't mean it doesn't exist. This is one really important

Unknown:

thing. I think, when you grew up kind of skeptical, like me

Unknown:

interested in the sciences, you rely a lot on things that are

Unknown:

present, I think you want evidence. So being the evidence

Unknown:

driven little girl I was for most of my high school life, I

Unknown:

didn't consider it. So first of all, yes, it's there, it's

Unknown:

possible. If you really want this, you can do it without the

Unknown:

illusion that it will only take hard work, because it might take

Unknown:

more than that it is possible. And I think my favorite thing

Unknown:

about being able to do this position as well links to this,

Unknown:

because I think that there are also women out there who play

Unknown:

and love valorant. And don't even consider a professional

Unknown:

career because of what they see, which is major teams with all

Unknown:

male rosters, there isn't a rule saying it has to be that way, it

Unknown:

just is that way, this is what they see. So they have no

Unknown:

interest in engaging because they don't think they fit or

Unknown:

that they're not good enough, or that it might be too hard. And

Unknown:

as a teenager, I didn't see that I didn't think I would ever be

Unknown:

good enough to be a programmer, I didn't think I was smart

Unknown:

enough keen enough. Nothing that can that can be developed that

Unknown:

can be grown. You know, you don't have to be born into the

Unknown:

perfect predisposition to have that job and the driving factor

Unknown:

for it in general. And what I would love to let teenage Ashley

Unknown:

know is that actually loving it enough to one tip is also

Unknown:

something it also has value. And it is essentially that passion

Unknown:

and desire to be in the space to work with games translates to

Unknown:

something that a lot of people who maybe found it really easy

Unknown:

to get a job in the industry, or just thought it made sense

Unknown:

because they were offered the job might not have which is this

Unknown:

incredible resilience to the adversity that you might face,

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the creativity that comes from being just so passionate about

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something that you know it as well as you might know, a

Unknown:

relative or a close friend, this flexibility, this

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imaginativeness that comes with being very passionate about

Unknown:

something is so important. And at the end of the day, if you're

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able to convey that and a cover letter or convey that and your

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career trajectory, like me going from QA to data science, to

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journalism, whatever, to show that I'm willing to do these

Unknown:

things just to be near something I love that this too is

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something it's not a sign that you don't know enough to be

Unknown:

there despite what you might hear or feel, or what you might

Unknown:

even be telling yourself that it is actually your advantage. This

Unknown:

is your skill, this resilience and this love of the space is a

Unknown:

skill and it will translate into other skills and it will

Unknown:

translate into a presence that people will eventually come to

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see that they cannot do without that they will want you to be in

Unknown:

their space to to create great games or create an awesome

Unknown:

tournament or whatever that ends up being. I think that this

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would be probably the most important thing I would say to

Unknown:

teenage Ashley as well as a lot of other things about like guys

Unknown:

and life but definitely this

Lindsay Poss:

actually thank you so so much for coming on. Where

Lindsay Poss:

can people find you follow you learn more about game changers

Lindsay Poss:

learn how to sport game changers, all that good stuff,

Lindsay Poss:

plug everything

Unknown:

Yeah. Okay, everything you need to know about where to

Unknown:

find me is that my username on Twitter is my name with no

Unknown:

vowels. So Ashley Washington, but just remove all the vowels

Unknown:

and you will find me on Twitter. And if you find me on Twitter,

Unknown:

you will also find a link to my website. So if you would rather

Unknown:

check out my website, you will find it there. But I recommend

Unknown:

starting there and maybe if we connect I will tell you where

Unknown:

else you can find me. Twitch maybe tick tock I don't know. My

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tick tock username is different because not everybody's ready

Unknown:

for tick tock Ashley. But hey, who knows?

Lindsay Poss:

I'm not ready for Tiktok you could have just

Lindsay Poss:

stopped there.

Unknown:

No, you gotta get with it. Come on.

Lindsay Poss:

Oh, that's a whole other data privacy issue. We

Lindsay Poss:

don't have time for

Unknown:

that. Oh, no, thank you. This was really great. I'm

Unknown:

happy to spread game changers. Yes. And actually,

Lindsay Poss:

yes, yes. Spreading in a good way too. And

Lindsay Poss:

all the best senses of the word. Yeah. Um, for all listeners out

Lindsay Poss:

there, be sure to leave those five star ratings and reviews

Lindsay Poss:

and helps other people find the show. Check out other holodeck

Lindsay Poss:

media podcasts including meta business and business of

Lindsay Poss:

esports. I'm on Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn at

Lindsay Poss:

Lindsey pass. I am not on tick tock. You can catch me Wednesday

Lindsay Poss:

afternoons on the business of esports live after show and you

Lindsay Poss:

can catch this podcast in your feed every

Unknown:

week. Thanks for joining us here on meta woman.

Unknown:

Make sure to subscribe to this podcast everywhere you get your

Unknown:

podcasts leave a five star review and tell your friends

Unknown:

family and colleagues all about us. Also, make sure to follow

Unknown:

meta TV on all socials to get more of the best Metaverse

Unknown:

content anywhere. Tune in every week for another episode of

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About the Podcast

META Woman
Weekly metaverse content - for women, by women
Meta Woman will focus on addressing the issues, opportunities, and challenges facing women in the development of the Metaverse. Top female executives and business people operating within the gaming and crypto industries bring a wide range of perspectives through regular guest appearances.