Episode 8

full
Published on:

25th Jan 2022

8. Getting WIGI With It

The crossover event of our dreams! Joanie Kraut and Kendryx Linscott from Women in Gaming International (WIGI for short) join me for this week's episode. Listen as we dissect what WIGI is doing to both improve and help women get into the gaming industry, talk about how conferences can be a really useful tool, and learn how to brag about ourselves.

Episode Resources:

https://www.getwigi.com/

Transcript
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Welcome to the meta woman podcast we address the

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issues, opportunities and challenges facing women in the

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development of the metaverse the biggest revolution since the

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internet itself. Every week we bring you conversations with top

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female talent and business executives operating in the

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gaming and crypto industries. Here's your host Lindsey, the

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boss pass. The metal woman podcast starts now. Hello, and

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welcome to the men and woman podcast part of the holodeck

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media Podcast Network. I'm your host Lindsay the boss pass

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together we're going to have conversations about what it's

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like to be a woman in the gaming industry. From struggle to

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success. We're covering it all. To our returning listeners.

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Thank you so much for supporting the show. Please be sure to

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leave a five star rating review and tell a friend about the pod

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you guys know the whole spiel if you've listened to podcast

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before for new listeners welcome and I hope you enjoy the show.

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I'm so excited to introduce our guest this week. I love having

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an episode with multiple guests. I think it's really fun to

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bounce ideas off each other. This week we have Joanie Kraut

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and Kendricks Lynn Scott, from women and gaming's international

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aka wiggy, which is the most fun acronym I think.

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Wiki is a nonprofit with a mission to cultivate resources

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to advance economic equality and diversity in the global games

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industry. So Johnny and contrix, welcome to the show. I'm so

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excited to have you guys. Thank you for having us. Yeah, I mean,

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I get it, I get it. Just start. Could you guys just give me a

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little, a couple sentences from your background? And who you

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are, what your stories are?

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Sure, absolutely. So I'm Joanie. I'm the CEO at wiki. I started

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as a CFO about two years ago, two and a half years ago now.

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And I just transitioned to CEO just over a year ago now. And

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it's it's been an amazing journey just coming through the

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games industry and kind of seeing the different

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inequalities and then finding this amazing group of people who

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are also having those shared experiences and being so excited

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and empowered to empower the next generation of leaders and

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just finding ways to to help normalize women femme presenting

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and non binary professionals in the global gaming industry. It's

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it's, it feels like fun more than work. So really excited to

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be part of the team.

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And I'm Kendricks I'm the CMO over at wiggy. Which Yes, every

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time I say it, I'm like getting with you with it. And everyone

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just go stop and just like shoot me way. But anyway, my pronouns

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are they them. I've been in gaming and esports for almost

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seven years now. I started as an esports, journalist way back

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when following my passion of Dota. Two actually, God knows

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every time again, a conversation Dota two is the best game in the

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world, let me tell you about it. But besides my love of Dota, I

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had a real big passion for social media marketing, prior to

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entering the games industry. And so I spent a long time proving

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myself having to overcome barriers have overcome struggles

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that were non existent to my men counterparts in my jobs. And

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I've worked a very long time to get to a place where I can work

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with an organization like wiggy, where we work on that

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inequality. While we work on ensuring that women non binary

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and femme presenting people have the same opportunities as men.

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So I'm really happy to be part of the team. I also again, we

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are Joanie, it is more fun than it is work. But I think when you

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love something so much, or when you have a passion for like

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games, or esports, or inequality, or making it easier

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for everybody else, it truly doesn't feel like a job. So I'm

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just happy to be on the team and be working on projects that we

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have coming up.

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I love it when people love what they do. We always hear about,

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you know, burnout, and everyone's tired and all of

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that, which is also true for sure. But it's so nice

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refreshing when there's a perspective of people who are

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just really excited by the work that they do. It's so cool. So

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speaking of that, I know you guys offer several different

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programs, ways to get involved things that you kind of push out

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to your audience. Can we just kind of briefly go through those

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and what they do? Oh, man, I'm so excited. So when I started

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out wiggy, we were very focused on in person networking events,

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which was amazing and impactful and great. But I come from a

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nonprofit background. And so I was just like, we could be doing

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so much more. And so this year in 2022, we are so excited to be

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launching over 26 separate programs that are focused on

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creating that that empowerment that strategic normalization and

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really just pushing people forward. So we have a power

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leveling series that is the first Wednesday of every month.

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It's focused on really

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empowering people to learn from a workshop and interactive

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workshop. It's intentionally very closed. So it's something

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you have to register for. It's a zoom link that we are keeping

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that conversation very kind of buttoned up. It's not recorded,

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and it's very much intentionally meant to be this as a safe space

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where you can ask every single question you can get specific

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advice from these amazing industry professionals. And it's

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really creating that that open opportunity to

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to learn and to grow, and to ask specific questions to your

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specific instance, we also have the Get in the game program

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Kendricks you talk about that one. It's my favorite program.

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I'm always excited when you pass that ball over flakes. I'm just

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always ready to talk about it. So again, the game program is

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basically a micro mentorship program, where we have

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applicants apply to go to basically a convention or

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networking events. So things we went to ESI last year, but more

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importantly, it was actually edX. This year, we're going to

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ESI GDC, dice, hacks a couple other places, and essentially

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mentees apply to get in. And then once they're accepted, we

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have three mentors go with it go with them to an event. And at

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the event, they teach them things like networking, how to

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talk to people what to bring with you to go to a booth if

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you're, you know, a designer, and you want to get a job at

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Indy booth, or if you are a marketing professional, how do

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you go like, who do you talk to at a booth? Or who do you talk

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to at a networking event, we equip them with everything that

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they need. And then it's runs typically, three to four days, I

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would say depends on the networking or the convention,

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we're going to our eG x one that we did in October actually had

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an 80% higher rate after the after the actual get in the game

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program. So I think it was, quote, we could be wrong. Joanie

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might correct me, but it was two weeks after the program, half of

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the people had jobs, so three of them. And then two weeks after

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that, another two people got full time jobs. So we had five

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out of the six individuals had full time jobs after the getting

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game program. So has a huge success rate. It's also a lot of

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fun, you actually like you get to go to an event like it's paid

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for your flights, your hotel, the tickets, everything is paid

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for. So you just go as an individual. It's really a

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passion project. For me, this one in particular, because when

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I started in esports, there wasn't that opportunity to like,

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go to event if I wanted to go cover an event to try to get

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noticed. And like write an article or do the interviews, I

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pay for everything myself. And like as a broke student. That

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was a lot of money that I was spending to go to this event and

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it was airfare and it was tickets and it was hotel and it

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was food. So the fact that we can offer this to mentees to go

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with us and like actually experience the event and get

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that experience is like out of this world for me. But I'll

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stop. There's also another really cool program that we have

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coming up Joanie, which like tech with the step us program, I

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think, I think that I get in the game program, too, is still so

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amazing, because it was amazing to watch these women go just

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just by talking to them at breakfast before the conference

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and saying, Okay, now you need to go get 1010 business cards at

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the conference today. And they're just like, No, I can't I

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can't talk to 10 people, I'm not going to ask somebody for a

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business card, I don't want to waste their time and just re

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changing that that perspective of No, you're not wasting their

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time, they're so lucky to be introduced to you go and talk to

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these people. Because this is a huge opportunity for both of

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you, if you get hired, that's an opportunity for the company to

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work with you. That's an amazing thing for them. And just kind of

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reframing that perspective, before they went into a

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conference. I was selling contracts earlier. Every time I

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before I speak, I go in my head and I go, wow, I really suck at

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speaking this is gonna be terrible. And then I started

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speaking, and it's terrible. And it's yeah, obviously. So if you

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if you just reframe before you start speaking, you know, it's,

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it's so impactful. And so amazing. So watching these

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people grow in this short, incredibly short time period to

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the point that they got, you know, not only a networking

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event, they got a business card, they got the you know, follow

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up, how do we follow up? Let's make sure we follow up with

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these business cards. How do we make this now part of our

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network and then using our network to get a job it was, it

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was really amazing to to really see that. So that is awesome,

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because one of the biggest things that we talk about on the

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show is imposter syndrome and the whole Yeah, so I'm wasting

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their time is such a huge part of that. And I truly wish that

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someone had sat me down when I was getting ready to leave

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school and done this. And I think that I was at a university

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where there's tons of networking opportunities, but I never knew

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how to follow up. Having a specific goal is so good. And

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just teaching people how to leverage all of that is it's

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because it's really not that hard once you know. But the

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barrier to knowing feels so high when you're constantly putting

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yourself down. So I love that you address the whole problem

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and not just hey, go to a conference. Right, right. Yeah,

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good luck. Bye.

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That's so great night. I hope that this can be a model like

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for in and out of the gaming industry because that's the kind

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of stuff that's for young adults. I feel like it's so

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important because this is stuff I've missed out on right. I know

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from personal experience like oh my god listening to you talk.

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Oh, I wish I had that. Yeah, I feel like our whole programs

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portfolio this year was really built around. I wish I had known

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X when I started in my career or when I was trying to get from

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entry level to mid manager or manager to C suite. I wish I had

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known this and then it's like cool let's do a program on it.

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Let's have a panel on let's have a conversation around it. And

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and it's not even just just knowing but having the

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confidence to do it. Once you do know it like you can read

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All the self help books in the world, but if you don't do the

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thing, it's not really helping you. So, Kendricks always posts,

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you know, on Twitter like heading to wherever, so you

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know, like a week in advance that they're heading to a

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specific event. And then once they're there, they're at

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whatever. And I was like, bounce off support.

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So it Yeah, yeah, and starting new conversations, because then

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people know you're available, and you're there. And then they

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can reply and be like, Hey, I'm here to let's let's talk about

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potential partnership, or collaboration or job

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opportunity. One of my favorite things was also just seeing them

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also, like, come together as like a cohort. Like, I went to

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university, I had my own cohort, like we did all the classes

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together, we knew each other, we studied together, it was like,

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three years of all we did together was like, we knew each

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other inside and out. And what was really nice to see is, over

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the three days, like they became their own cohort, like they were

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like, we would message the group on Discord and be like, whereas

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everyone, and like no one would answer, and we would see them

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messaging each other in a separate conversation that they

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had started. And we're like, okay, success was made, because

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they're now like their friends. They're their colleagues.

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They're also people in their own network in gaming esports. So

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they have those people in their corner, which is the most

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important thing that I stressed getting into the industry. But

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it was also like, hey, could like someone pay attention to us

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as well? Because like, we like to go to lunch? Because we're

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hungry.

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That's so funny. It's the student becoming the master very

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quickly. Yes. Yeah.

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I know, there's a couple more programs, I would love to hear

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about those. Obviously, absolutely. So great.

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So the mentorship program, we are going to do one quarterly

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and 2022, which we're very excited about. The first one is

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in February. And it is a program focused on really just creating,

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it's actually two programs in one. So the first program is

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teaching a mentor how to be a mentor. And the second program

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is the actual mentor mentee relationship. So having

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different opportunities to listen to and learn from and

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network with different industry professionals. And really having

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those again, those specific questions answered, what what is

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it that you are trying to accomplish? What is it that you

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want to get out of this program, really setting those goals, and

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then making sure that people are attainable for reaching those

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goals? Again, a lot of times it's it's what I didn't know,

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and the people who are the mentors know, so we can kind of

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help you get to the next level. So

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Kendrick, you want to take stepless? Oh, yes, that was

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that's coming up, I love that I get the ones that are coming up

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sooner.

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So the staffers program is like a micro Summit is kind of how I

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explained it. So it's basically three days is our is our one

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coming up. So it's a three day, four hours, the first two days

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and then five hours the second day where we have a bunch of

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panels. And essentially they focus on one particular program.

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So the one that we have coming up is

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I don't know if I'm like, when does this come out

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on helping people get jobs in esports. And partnering with an

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amazing organization to run this program that will be announced

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shortly.

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That was perfect teamwork. And essentially, what it does is

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it's free to attend. So you basically show up to the Twitch

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channel, you listen to panels, you have what this periods where

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this q&a is, and then it moves on to the next panel. And the

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whole idea is to talk about one particular brand or program that

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we've partnered with that explores one aspect of the

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gaming and esports industry. And so we have one coming up, it's

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actually the end of this month. I really love these because

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they're a way of attending and getting that like kind of close

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interaction with panelists in a virtual way. I know COVID is

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still wrapping and while some people travel like, like I do,

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it's not accessible for everyone. So the staffers

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program is a nice way to have a quarterly micro summit where you

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can meet new people see new experiences, and also get

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familiar with new brands you might not have heard of.

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Yeah, and then we have open world dialogue, which is an open

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conversation also on Twitch as a second Wednesday of every month.

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And it's it's creating more of an open conversation. So just

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anybody can join, there's no registration required, and

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really finding ways to to interact with our community and

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answer questions. We do have that very heavily monitored, to

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make sure that the conversation stay stay positive and

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constructive. But it's a really cool opportunity to again, just

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have these industry professionals kind of speaking

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to their experiences, and what they learned from those

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experiences to help the next person maybe not go through as

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much or know how to advocate for themselves if there is a

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situation.

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And then our networking events

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go, I just I love I love the things that are in person and I

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love the virtual in person things too. But so our

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networking events really focus on creating safe spaces where

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you can network where you can meet people or you can basically

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get together with colleagues in the industry in some capacity.

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So whether that's like an after party

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Which we did at PAX unplugged, whether that's our after party

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at GDC that we did think it was two years ago because it was pre

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COVID. These events really focused on creating spaces where

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women non binary and femme presenting individuals can

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network and meet other people. I know that a lot of times,

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especially when I was just starting out the industry, you

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would go into an after party, or you would go to a networking

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event, and it would be like 98% men, and it would be really

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intimidating to feel confident and not have imposter syndrome

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and also feel safe and also feel like your voice is heard. And so

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we create these spaces, these networking events where women

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non binary representing people could do just that. They're my

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favorite one of my favorite things of this whole thing.

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Because it really makes you feel like you're part of the crowd

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and part of the industry and gets gives you that opportunity

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to like exchange the business cards and meet people that are

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perhaps outside of your lane in the industry. So if you're a

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marketer, maybe you can meet some game devs if you're Game

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Dev, maybe you're meeting some CEOs or CFOs it's just a great

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way to meet people in the industry.

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And then we also have, okay, oh, I was just gonna say, I will

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know that you said you've already said twice what your

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favorite thing is. I know I have so many favorites. My it's a

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good thing. It's a good thing. Yeah, I just I like that again,

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I liked I like to hear when people really love what they do.

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And yeah, Johnny, I'm sorry for cutting you off. But I talk

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about your podcasts, right? Yeah, oh, God, not mine, I would

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I can't get the conversation going. The the cheat code

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podcast is very much focused on again, creating those

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conversations with industry professionals, and was focused

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on a specific topic to really get that engagement. Those are

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also streamed on Twitch and then uploaded to Spotify and YouTube.

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So the most important thing with all of our programs is that they

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are all completely free to attend to be part of to register

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for and really creating that opportunity. You know, the

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biggest discrepancy we're seeing is that certain people are paid

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underpaid. And so we want to give those underpaid people the

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opportunity to learn and to grow as you would if you had a bunch

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of money to throw at your career. And so that's really one

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of the biggest things, everything, our networking

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events, our mentorship program, everything that we offer is

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100%. Free to our community. Yeah, getting that equal footing

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is definitely super important. One of the things about this is

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I know you guys focus a lot on the fence, which is really cool.

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I am someone who has not always known what I can get out of

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conferences, or panels or things like that. So can you tell? Can

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you talk a little bit more and kind of tell the audience a

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little bit about why events like this have an impact and how

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people can take advantage of them in a better way?

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My guess, is my second favorite thing.

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Yeah, I see. So like not to hearken back always to like what

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happened to me when I started an industry. But I think there's a

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big portion of like visibility that plays into why we do these

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networking events and why we attend these conventions. When

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you start in the industry while while esports and gaming is very

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much online, and it's very digital, it can feel like your

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one voice in in 1000s, like hundreds of 1000s. And so

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finding people or seeing organizations that you can be a

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part of that can feel can support you can feel like it's

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just a sea of people like where do I find an organization that

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is going to help me? Or where can I find resources that are

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going to help advance my career? Where am I going to find a

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networking event where the focus is making it safe for everybody.

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And so by being visible conventions and conferences, you

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kind of start to part the sea start, you start to stand out

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and you start to become a beacon for people to find you. I mean,

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one great example is I think PAX East, which we're going to in

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April has like 300,000 attendees is like pre COVID. Those were

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the numbers. So 300,000 People means that, let's say 20% of

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them walked by our booth just like a number I'm pulling out

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it's not accurate, but I'm gonna go with it. If only 20% That's

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still 20% of 300,000, which I'm sure Joanie can do the math, not

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the math person here. It's a lot of people that see and out of

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that percentage of people, an X number of them will be women,

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non binary femme presenting individuals, which they will

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then gravitate and be like, Okay, well, maybe that's a

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resource that I can go back to. That's the whole reason that

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people have like swag booths and business cards and signups is

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because we want people to be able to we want to be that

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resource for people we want to make people feel less alone we

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want to make to help them with their careers, right. That's the

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whole purpose. So besides being lots of fun and getting to be my

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very, very extroverted self can conferences and networking

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events are a way of parting the sea and being a beacon for

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people in the industry. And then building your network but also

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having that buddy system I always say I can logic myself

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out of anything because I will just get so in my head I can

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make it seem like the worst idea or I can make it seem like the

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best idea depending on how much alcohol is involved. So I

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definitely that's very real.

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So if there's if there's an opportunity for me to go by

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myself, I know when I went to dice, the first time I went

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right before the world closed, I was so excited to be there. And

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there were so many amazing people. And I just got really in

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my head of like, man, they're not gonna want to talk to me, or

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what would I even say? Or if I went to go introduce myself, how

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would I even do that? And thankfully, Amy Allison was

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there. And she is on our board of directors. She's been with

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wiggy, almost as long as I've been alive. And she's just

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amazing. And she's so extroverted. But she also is, so

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you want to know me, you want to know me just as much as I want

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to know you? And she has that mentality of like, why not have

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an extra friend? Why wouldn't we be friends? Like, why? Why

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wouldn't we talk to each other, and, and kind of walking into a

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conference with that person, it helps me so much. And so that's

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now my Kendrick,

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kind of in a similar mindset, where they're constantly just

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like, Let's go talk to this person, because they would be

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amazing if we could partner with them for X, Y, or Z. Or I feel

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like there's a potential here. And I think it would be at least

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worth a conversation to see if there is a way to collaborate

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and changing your mentality from I want something from you, too,

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I want to see how we could work together, it's really amazing.

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So we want to be that for people, we want to be your

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buddy, we want to, we want to create that buddy system for you

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and create that confidence in you to then now go and start

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that conversation, even if you're if you're by yourself.

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So I think that's a really good point. And that's something as

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I've been, you know, just started this podcast. But as

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I've been getting into it, one of the most beautiful things

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about it is that there hasn't been a ton of people who have

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looked to be overly competitive, which I really appreciate.

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Because there's no way we're all going to win if we're all

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fighting each other. And I would rather us all win. And when it

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comes to that kind of collaboration, have you guys

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have felt kind of the openness of the gaming community, I sort

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of switched industries here from tech policy into gaming, and it

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feels much more open and much less closed off. But um, you all

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have been in gaming for longer. So I'd love to, to know what you

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think about that. And that's obviously, there's always a bad

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portion in the good, but I want to stick to the good portion.

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This is the hardest question. Um, it's hard. Because when I

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started, I gotta keep saying this. When I started in the

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industry in the day, back in the day, I used to go to Bandcamp, I

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don't make me use that reference. And basically, it was

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really hard, because there weren't a lot of women in

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positions that I could look up to when I first started. And

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this was like a very truthful thing in Dota, there was maybe

Unknown:

two casters at the top level, and then a couple more Dota I

Unknown:

was like, wow, yeah, like, that's an OG move. That's tough.

Unknown:

Oh, gee, that's how old I am now. But it was really

Unknown:

challenging, because there one wasn't people to look up to. So

Unknown:

there wasn't like, and I and I did something very different. I

Unknown:

focused on interviews. And so I didn't want to be a caster. I

Unknown:

didn't want to be any of that stuff. And there wasn't anyone

Unknown:

doing what I was doing. So it was hard because other women in

Unknown:

the industry felt the competition because there were

Unknown:

so few of us that it was like, Oh, if I don't get this gig, or

Unknown:

if they get the gig, that means I don't get it. Or if they get

Unknown:

the money, I don't get it. And there wasn't a lot of like,

Unknown:

camaraderie, I would say. And that slowly shifted. So slowly,

Unknown:

over time, it became less about like, everyone's got their own

Unknown:

piece of the pie and it became more about like sharing the pie.

Unknown:

Like Whew, I heard this really cool opportunity came up or let

Unknown:

me put you in the running for this position. I think you'd be

Unknown:

amazing for it. And so it shifted but it took a long time.

Unknown:

And so I'd say like in the esports industry women are

Unknown:

getting more supportive of each other same with like non binary

Unknown:

of which there's very few but we we kind of like group together

Unknown:

now it's like these groups of people kind of come together and

Unknown:

we have these discord channels and we like send each other all

Unknown:

these job postings and we're always like, we're all the each

Unknown:

owns cheerleaders, which is really nice. But I'd say like,

Unknown:

as a whole, I hate mention this person's name, but like Thorin

Unknown:

is a great example of like someone who's caused a lot of I

Unknown:

don't know if you can slay on this so a lot of shit over the

Unknown:

past like day and a half of just really being a very toxic person

Unknown:

at the top and is so well known that the toxicity almost like

Unknown:

leaks down it gets a trickle down effect if someone at the

Unknown:

top is that toxic towards women, it just it just trickles down

Unknown:

because it empowers everyone else to be that toxic. And so

Unknown:

yeah, the the camaraderie might be there more. But the industry

Unknown:

as a whole still isn't as accepting and still isn't, like

Unknown:

rooting for women and non binary people to succeed, which is

Unknown:

tragic, truthfully. But so it's kind of like that that thing you

Unknown:

talked about it's positive where we're seeing the women and non

Unknown:

binary and femme presenting people get together and

Unknown:

cheerlead each other on but then the industry is still hasn't

Unknown:

like caught up to where we are. And then Microsoft's another

Unknown:

really cool thing about wiggy is that we have an amazing team of

Unknown:

allies. And so one of you know, one of our biggest things that

Unknown:

we were founded on was this, this group of allies that were

Unknown:

like

Unknown:

Do the thing we fully support that we think it's amazing. And

Unknown:

we actually had a conference when we very first came into

Unknown:

fruition and it was, you know, meant mixed gender panels, and

Unknown:

everybody was welcome. And it was very open to everyone. And

Unknown:

that's something that we're trying to put out there, again,

Unknown:

is like, it's not just women, I know women is in our name. But

Unknown:

it's not just women that we are supporting. It's not just women

Unknown:

that we are trying to amplify, we really want everyone to have

Unknown:

an equal opportunity. We're not anti men, we're pro everyone.

Unknown:

And that's, that's really the biggest focus that we have, you

Unknown:

know, even in our networking events, in our panels, that our

Unknown:

discussions, it's not that it's only women, but it is more

Unknown:

centric to the idea of, you know, things that were faced by

Unknown:

women. But you know, having things in common with everybody

Unknown:

who's in a diverse category, everybody who's been othered is

Unknown:

kind of the empowering piece that we're trying to really lift

Unknown:

up and empower those people to to have the ability to self

Unknown:

advocate or have the confidence to, you know, know when

Unknown:

something is wrong, see when something is wrong and say

Unknown:

something and how are you an actionable ally? And how do you

Unknown:

make sure that you are making an impact? You know, we always say,

Unknown:

if you don't say anything, you're still taking a stance,

Unknown:

like, how are you making sure that you are advocating for

Unknown:

yourself and advocating for everyone else who has been

Unknown:

others to get those equal opportunities. So it's, it's not

Unknown:

turning away from the negativity, it's not turning

Unknown:

away from the toxicity, it's truly trying to eliminate it and

Unknown:

to, to find ways to take it on and get rid of it. So be the

Unknown:

change you want to see in the world.

Unknown:

That's a good, that's a good point. Because I've said the

Unknown:

same thing on this podcast several times. And we were on

Unknown:

the metal woman podcast, but I certainly see this more as a way

Unknown:

to have conversations about the gaming community as a whole.

Unknown:

What I find, I guess, sad about that is that I don't like having

Unknown:

to say things like, oh, men are welcome. Because, you know,

Unknown:

I don't like that being male is just the default assumption. You

Unknown:

know, it's like if, if it says, Woman, then you're going against

Unknown:

the default. And you have to be like, sort of extra careful

Unknown:

about inviting other people like, no, no, why don't we just

Unknown:

assume that there is no default, and that you can be welcome in

Unknown:

lots of spaces, provided that you are an open person who is

Unknown:

kind to others? It's just, it's kind of a, it's been sad to me

Unknown:

to have to sort of explain that away. Like, I know, we're a

Unknown:

better woman podcast, but it's not just for women. You know,

Unknown:

it's like that, and that's something that I'll continue to

Unknown:

do. And it's conversations to push for sure. But it just it

Unknown:

does make me sad, like, No, you got men can be here. There's no

Unknown:

rule. This isn't like little rascals. No girls loud. But

Unknown:

yeah, I don't know. It's just it's sort of sad to me that I'm

Unknown:

always having to explain that. I don't know if you all feel that

Unknown:

way, too. So when I first started out, we he and it was

Unknown:

very much women in games International. And people would

Unknown:

say, Okay, but what if I'm a trans woman? Or what if I'm, you

Unknown:

know, not what if I wasn't born female. And I was always like,

Unknown:

of course, students still be welcome more women and allies.

Unknown:

And so I felt like women and allies covered everybody,

Unknown:

because either you are a woman or you're an ally. But sometimes

Unknown:

there is this other piece where it's, you're not a woman, you're

Unknown:

maybe you're non binary, maybe you're,

Unknown:

maybe you're both, maybe you're neither, you know, like maybe

Unknown:

you you don't want to be put in a box to say what you are, and I

Unknown:

still want you on my team. And I still want to empower you. And I

Unknown:

still want to encourage you. And so it's not even just the name,

Unknown:

it's the feeling. And so that's why we're trying to create all

Unknown:

these programs, because even though you can walk in the door,

Unknown:

do you feel included? When you walk in the door? Do you feel

Unknown:

like you are welcome? When you walk in the door? Do you feel

Unknown:

like you're part of the conversation? And if you say

Unknown:

something, do you feel equitable in that conversation? Or do you

Unknown:

feel like you're dismissed because you're not a woman? And

Unknown:

that was that was really the biggest shift, I think, from

Unknown:

kind of taking things over. As you know, we always said women

Unknown:

and allies, but now it's, it's more inclusive in our wording

Unknown:

and trying to make sure that, you know, if you do come to this

Unknown:

thing, and you have something to say, please say it because we do

Unknown:

want to hear from you. And we do want to learn from you. And I

Unknown:

don't care if you identify as a woman or not, it's that was

Unknown:

never my intention. It was really to empower these, you

Unknown:

know, just the entire other community and really create that

Unknown:

equality within the games industry, which which truly

Unknown:

means everybody. Yeah, and I think that that's a good way of

Unknown:

building a community around that when it comes to actually kind

Unknown:

of transforming the industry.

Unknown:

How are you thinking about getting people into the right

Unknown:

careers to make those changes? What else would you like to see

Unknown:

what opportunities are kind of lacking? And we've talked about

Unknown:

how the industry has improved, but obviously, there's a long

Unknown:

way to go. What do you think that looks like from your guys's

Unknown:

perspective? It said your guys again, by the way, and I keep

Unknown:

trying to say not to say that I'm such a you guys are and I've

Unknown:

not been able to work that out of my vernacular yet, but I

Unknown:

promise I'm working on it.

Unknown:

Um, I spend a lot of time when I'm not working. I'm thinking

Unknown:

about what needs to change. And then and I think one

Unknown:

aspect that I, I always keep coming back to is this idea of.

Unknown:

So obviously, my background is very esports focus. So when I

Unknown:

say esports, I do also mean like the larger gaming industry as

Unknown:

well, but my experience is, is a lot of esports. So I speak to

Unknown:

that often. But the hiring practices, the diversity on

Unknown:

teams, the lack of leaders who are women, or non binary, or

Unknown:

trans men or trans women, or lgpd, just like, there, there's

Unknown:

such a lack of diversity in all aspects when it comes to upper

Unknown:

management, or hiring practices and teams in general, that, as

Unknown:

much as we want to see the diversity, there's this like,

Unknown:

awkward barrier, and like, that's why a lot of our programs

Unknown:

exist is to really remove that barrier, right? If the barrier

Unknown:

is you can't financially afford to get to convention, get in the

Unknown:

game program exist. If your barrier is you are unable to

Unknown:

take off time to go to a summit or go to a conference, we'll do

Unknown:

digital ones, right. So there's a lot of like trying to remove

Unknown:

those barriers. But there's this lack of wanting to shift that

Unknown:

mentality when it comes to like the higher practices and upper

Unknown:

management. And so I would really like to see that start to

Unknown:

shift, I'd really like to see companies and organ teams,

Unknown:

listen to what we're saying, and like not to be like, hey, hire

Unknown:

us, but like, hire us as di consultants, like, we're here to

Unknown:

help support you. We're here to help acknowledge what's missing

Unknown:

on your team, or help you identify how to fix those

Unknown:

missing pieces. There's lots of consultants, there's lots of

Unknown:

orcs who do this. And I think as much as we are trying to be the

Unknown:

change in the world, it also needs to be reciprocated, we

Unknown:

need to see start, we need to start seeing that change happen

Unknown:

on its own without us railing on the dollar all the time. Sorry,

Unknown:

I rambled a bit. But those are my feelings.

Unknown:

That's fine. I very much enjoyed hearing them. And sort of on

Unknown:

that note, I know this is a little bit of a prickly subject.

Unknown:

But you all did recently announced a grant from

Unknown:

Activision Blizzard. We all know why they've been in the news

Unknown:

lately. And I know that one of the things that's been going on

Unknown:

is a big demand for change the kind of change that you're

Unknown:

talking about. Do you think that this kind of ground level

Unknown:

movement can make it through to the top? And how can people who

Unknown:

are actually working at these big companies are or thinking

Unknown:

about getting into these big companies? make their voices

Unknown:

heard? And on the flip side, how can the companies make sure that

Unknown:

they're listening to those voices and improve this kind of

Unknown:

workplace dynamic that we have going on? That's really just not

Unknown:

serving the best interests of anyone at the end of the day?

Unknown:

Think creating that accountability and and creating

Unknown:

that accountability through truly identifying specific goals

Unknown:

and,

Unknown:

and where What do you want to see? So I feel like at one

Unknown:

point, people were just like, Okay, you need to hire more

Unknown:

people, you need to hire more diverse people. And then people

Unknown:

were hiring those diverse people and being like, Okay, check

Unknown:

done, leave me alone, I hired these diverse people. But they

Unknown:

were all entry level. They weren't being heard. They

Unknown:

weren't being seen. They weren't being supported. But the company

Unknown:

was like, Yeah, but we have a certain percentage. And that's

Unknown:

all you said you wanted. And so creating that accountability of

Unknown:

like, obviously, don't harass your employees, like check

Unknown:

dotnet that's, that's a big one that's from the state even. But

Unknown:

what do you do? How do you make sure that it's not just the

Unknown:

entry level employees who are then you know, asked to go get

Unknown:

coffee. And I know, I you know, what, I always I've been very

Unknown:

open with my you know, in earlier stages of my career,

Unknown:

just because I came from so little, I constantly felt like I

Unknown:

needed to prove myself I needed to prove that I belonged

Unknown:

somewhere I needed to prove that I I belonged in the room. And

Unknown:

even if I was just you know, standing there taking notes for

Unknown:

you, I needed to feel like I deserved that. Like, like I was

Unknown:

worth your time if I wanted to have a conversation with you.

Unknown:

And I constantly felt like I needed to say yes to every

Unknown:

project to take on everything that I possibly could to to show

Unknown:

that I was a valuable asset to the team. And that's not going

Unknown:

to get you anywhere. I was at a speech not too long ago, where

Unknown:

the woman said you you should never strive to be your

Unknown:

company's best kept secret. It's not good for you. It's not good

Unknown:

for your career. And then I've left different positions where

Unknown:

when I left, they had to hire three, four people to take on my

Unknown:

work because they had no idea how much I was doing because the

Unknown:

squeaky wheel gets the grease and I never squeaked. I didn't

Unknown:

want you to see me as a problem. I didn't want you to think that

Unknown:

I was overwhelmed. I didn't want you to think I couldn't handle

Unknown:

it because I was you know, whatever it was in my head

Unknown:

because I was the poor kid or because I was, you know the

Unknown:

woman or because I and so I constantly was pushing myself

Unknown:

without mentioning it without celebrating any of my

Unknown:

accomplishments without without speaking to the workload that I

Unknown:

had. And then when it got to the point where I did speak to the

Unknown:

workload, the feedback was like, Well, you've been doing it this

Unknown:

whole time. Why is this a problem now? And I want to train

Unknown:

people to

Unknown:

to not do that, I want to teach people that you need to

Unknown:

celebrate your accomplishments, you need to really reiterate

Unknown:

what it is that you're working on and and let your manager know

Unknown:

and and use that as a platform to get to the next level of your

Unknown:

career. So So what can companies do? Create that visible clear

Unknown:

pathway from entry level to C suite and show exactly what you

Unknown:

need to do to get to the next level? Have those regular check

Unknown:

ins make sure that there's equity in those conversations?

Unknown:

Are you taking notes? Is it something you can reference, I

Unknown:

remember having the most amazing job interview,

Unknown:

check in my annual check in raving, raving, raving, and your

Unknown:

pay raise is I was running payroll. So I happen to know my

Unknown:

pain race was the smallest in the company? Well, that's

Unknown:

because you get paid the least. And the company, like

Unknown:

basketballs make me feel better. You know, like, there's just a

Unknown:

lot of opportunities to just create that equality and and

Unknown:

what does that look like? And if there's no opportunity to get to

Unknown:

C suite, I think that's something you need to evaluate

Unknown:

and really take that into account as your as your business

Unknown:

model and your structure. Is that what makes the most sense?

Unknown:

I think, right now, companies are so overworked and there's so

Unknown:

much that they're doing in these studios have so many games and

Unknown:

things that they have to do. And now this is one more thing, but

Unknown:

it's like a vague thing that they don't fully know how to do.

Unknown:

And so we're trying to create that visibility. And that

Unknown:

accountability, we have a lot of research going into right now

Unknown:

creating a public policy around this and just having those, you

Unknown:

know, those specific attainable goals and, and percentages and

Unknown:

trainings that are that are out there that are available as

Unknown:

contracts were saying.

Unknown:

There's something that like really resonated with me, and

Unknown:

it's a little bit off the subject, but it's something that

Unknown:

I think we tried to at least I remember when we are Yeah. Oh,

Unknown:

my gosh, I can't think of the acronym. DGX. Wow, I was going X

Unknown:

GE and I was like, that's not it.

Unknown:

We were It was close. When we wrote the mentees part of it was

Unknown:

like hype isn't hyping them up in a sense. It's like oh my god,

Unknown:

you're amazing sweetie, like, Oh my God, but like truly like be

Unknown:

like, like, being that cheerleader, as I talked about

Unknown:

earlier. And I think that a lot of us have lost that sense of

Unknown:

like celebrating accomplishments. I used to think

Unknown:

that like celebrating a job promotion, or like getting a new

Unknown:

job, or like talking about like, something that happened, that

Unknown:

was good to me. I was like, no one wants to hear about it.

Unknown:

That's bragging. Nobody wants to be that person, like, no one's

Unknown:

gonna want to follow me, no one's gonna listen, that I got

Unknown:

in the habit of like not talking about my accomplishments,

Unknown:

because I was like, I would rather just be proud of my

Unknown:

accomplishments and like, not talk about it. And that's

Unknown:

something that like, I think we're actively trying to change

Unknown:

at wiki is like, encouraging the people who come into our

Unknown:

programs to talk about their accomplishments to talk about

Unknown:

completing a portfolio to talk about that new graphic they did,

Unknown:

or that's like the partnership that they secured, no one cares

Unknown:

that it's wasn't for any money. Everyone cares that you did it

Unknown:

and you like you set out you got the partnership. It's exactly

Unknown:

what you wanted. And that's, that's something to celebrate.

Unknown:

So, and I was a little bit off topic, but like, I think that's

Unknown:

something that we really, truly are pushing at wiki. And it

Unknown:

might not be like at the forefront of every program. But

Unknown:

it is something that we we are actively talking about.

Unknown:

No, that's extremely true. And I think that you're absolutely

Unknown:

right that women in particular, but it's probably a problem for

Unknown:

many people out there. Don't talk enough about what they do.

Unknown:

Where we definitely have this kind of ideal thing in Western

Unknown:

countries, aka the American Dream kind of thing was no work

Unknown:

hard, and you'll get what you deserve. And just put your head

Unknown:

down and do what you're told go above and beyond all of that

Unknown:

stuff. And it's definitely an encouragement of, if you work

Unknown:

hard people will notice and that's just patently not true.

Unknown:

Working hard is a good step towards achieving more. That's

Unknown:

definitely a piece of the puzzle. But there's so many

Unknown:

other pieces to that puzzle. And one of them is actually letting

Unknown:

people know that you've worked hard.

Unknown:

All silencing. Exactly, and that's something I've gone

Unknown:

through I was a college athlete. And when I graduated, all my

Unknown:

coaches, said, Oh, we're so amazed that you played so well.

Unknown:

When you partied all the time. I was like, What are you talking

Unknown:

about? I never partied. I was thinking that I was truly in the

Unknown:

gym, Friday and Saturday nights I play basketball getting shots

Unknown:

up like that was me. But because I was so effervescent and

Unknown:

bubbly, they just assumed it's like oh well, and my quieter

Unknown:

colleagues who were also in the gym with me and got so much

Unknown:

credit for getting in the gym on Friday and Saturday nights was

Unknown:

like I was there you guys.

Unknown:

And I like in bubbly and crazy a little bit but I'm still working

Unknown:

hard and that that was that lightbulb moment that you're

Unknown:

talking about contracts with? Oh, you have to say something

Unknown:

otherwise people make their own assumptions. And those

Unknown:

assumptions could be so wrong. It could be

Unknown:

really come back to hurt you. So I think that that was a good, a

Unknown:

very pro pro tangent, if you will, which was great. I do want

Unknown:

to talk a little bit about this big M word that we've all been

Unknown:

hearing about the metaverse.

Unknown:

I don't really exactly have a full picture of what the

Unknown:

metaverse is just yet. And I think that's one of the alluring

Unknown:

things about it. But I do think that anytime that a new industry

Unknown:

starts, there's such a chance to build it more equitably and

Unknown:

fairly, and sort of get rid of some of those things from old

Unknown:

systems that aren't necessarily serving us. So I would love to

Unknown:

hear if you all are doing any work in the metaverse what

Unknown:

you're thinking about what the metaverse what it means to you

Unknown:

what it means to diversity, inclusion programs and equality

Unknown:

and that good stuff.

Unknown:

I truthfully, I'm very skeptic of the metaverse, I sound like I

Unknown:

sound like a bloomer, it's fine, I'll set the title for now. And

Unknown:

I, I'm apprehensive, I feel like it's an opportunity to really

Unknown:

like as you said, explore that like, creating a more equitable

Unknown:

and more diverse landscape. But the same time, I'm skeptic

Unknown:

because it's Facebook, and Facebook doesn't have the best

Unknown:

track record

Unknown:

doesn't have the best like has never put forethought into this.

Unknown:

And so it's almost like I'm apprehensive. But I'm also like,

Unknown:

I don't really want to have to take on the burden of being that

Unknown:

person who's very loudly screaming once more in a

Unknown:

different industry. Why aren't things different? Like, to me,

Unknown:

it's like,

Unknown:

it's I'm not saying exhaustive, but I'm exhausted from doing it

Unknown:

in this industry. So it's like, like, volunteering myself to do

Unknown:

this in a different industry on a different platform that has

Unknown:

very clearly not put any effort in before feels like oof, it's

Unknown:

another mountain that I need to climb. And I don't know if I'm

Unknown:

well prepared for this fight yet. I think that like as an

Unknown:

organization, I think that will eventually move into the space.

Unknown:

And I think eventually it will be on our roadmap, but like

Unknown:

currently, I'm physically exhausted thinking about it. But

Unknown:

I think that once I start seeing what they're doing to truly make

Unknown:

that an equitable and diverse landscape, then I'll start to

Unknown:

like, adjust myself and our organization to enter into it. I

Unknown:

just, I'm hesitant being the first in that landscape because

Unknown:

of the history that's attached to it. Yeah, definitely, the

Unknown:

leadership leaves a little bit to be desired. I get that. Yeah.

Unknown:

When I first took over CEO, one of the first things I wanted was

Unknown:

to get out of just the video games industry and really focus

Unknown:

on esports, and tabletop and truly the global games industry

Unknown:

and like, really focus on every aspect of gaming and trying to

Unknown:

normalize women in every space within that within each sector.

Unknown:

I know with the metaverse, specifically with GamesBeat,

Unknown:

they just did a call for speakers. And I've been working

Unknown:

with Dina kind of there's a committee that we all work

Unknown:

together for women in games, and really trying to focus on making

Unknown:

sure that panels and conversations are very equitable

Unknown:

within not just, you know, the male perspective. And so it was,

Unknown:

it was kind of a

Unknown:

a lot to take on, just with regard to what does it mean? How

Unknown:

do we make sure that we are seeing equitable, there's a lot

Unknown:

of really amazing people in the space, who are non males who are

Unknown:

doing really great things with augmented reality, and virtual

Unknown:

reality and just video and digital universe creation. And

Unknown:

so is there an opportunity to make sure that those people are

Unknown:

also being seen and heard in this space? And as Kendrick

Unknown:

said, you know, it's, it's a lot right now. And it's it's very

Unknown:

exciting to see that there is so much opportunity to create that

Unknown:

equality. But again, it's usually a monetary barrier based

Unknown:

on the fact that who has the most money, who has the most

Unknown:

money to throw around at a new concept, who has the most money

Unknown:

to invest? And those are going to be the people who are

Unknown:

represented and heard and that's nine out of 10 times why it's,

Unknown:

you know, it's me becomes very male dominated, so

Unknown:

hopeful but hopeful, obviously. Yeah. cautiously hopeful. Yeah.

Unknown:

Yeah. And I think that's a fair place to be. It's such a this is

Unknown:

such a loose concept at the moment and, like you noted,

Unknown:

Joanie, there's lots of people who are working on different

Unknown:

things in the metaverse but I do think that unfortunately, it's

Unknown:

been overshadowed by good old Facebook

Unknown:

changing their name I also know for our listeners that we were

Unknown:

named the metal woman podcast way before Facebook decided to

Unknown:

change its name to true recall before it was cool.

Unknown:

Out of the trends, but Millennials now this is amazing

Unknown:

grads arrived we were cool before things were cool loving

Unknown:

the day that they announced it.

Unknown:

But we were in too deep at that point. You should just add

Unknown:

official somewhere

Unknown:

And then just jump on the bandwagon, like the official

Unknown:

Metaverse, women's finance or the metal of the podcast. Like I

Unknown:

think that's the way to go. Yeah, that's a good idea, little

Unknown:

to.

Unknown:

Sure.

Unknown:

So just to summarize really quick, for the for our

Unknown:

listeners, I think that we these programs are awesome. One of the

Unknown:

things I love is that you focus on things that people wish they

Unknown:

knew and provide a whole picture instead of just a kind of

Unknown:

singular resource or experience. You build a community for women

Unknown:

and allies to create a space where everyone can truly be

Unknown:

comfortable. We're all are welcome comes to the industry,

Unknown:

some change has been made, and there's a better collaboration,

Unknown:

but there's a long way to go. And focusing on removing

Unknown:

barriers, access, equity, that kind of thing can help. One of

Unknown:

the great pieces of advice that both of you have noted is that

Unknown:

you should strive to never be your company's best kept secret.

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Shout out to the speaker who said that to Joanie, I think

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that's a great way of saying it. You should be an advocate for

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yourself, celebrate your accomplishments and use your

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accomplishments as a platform to advance your career. And one

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thing that companies can material lead do to create

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change as to create visual and clear transparent pathways from

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entry level to C suite. So those are just all our little

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takeaways. One thing I love to end on with all of our guests is

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a little moment of reflection. So if you all could just tell

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me, we've talked about this a lot. But what is one thing you

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would like to tell your younger self about getting into the

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gaming industry and being successful?

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Oh, gosh,

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no, I'll go first, this time, that's only fair, um, wow.

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It's gonna be a little bit sadder. I'm a PR, that kind of

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person. But

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eventually, all the pain and the strife and the barriers will,

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will disappear. And you will be in a position that you can make

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the changes that you want to see the industry.

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I love that.

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That was really bad. But

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I would say,

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Gosh, something I learned very early, really early on in my

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career was to take everything from a solution standpoint. So

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bringing not just a problem to the table, but at least two

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potential solutions to offer. It's a great to identify a

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problem and call it out as a problem. But make sure that you

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have an end goal to focus on. Focus on the solution instead of

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continuing to discuss the fact that there's a problem. So I

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think that was always something that really helped me within my

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career, especially if you if you do have something you want to

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bring to a manager.

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For Personally though, I think just be yourself. And it's okay

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to be yourself. Even if yourself is a Star Wars loving Harry

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Potter Loving World of Warcraft nerd. There were so many times

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that I dressed or acted a certain way that cuz I thought

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that was how I was supposed to and kind of looking back on

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that. Now I don't think that you know, 20 years old, I need to be

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wearing sensible shoes and, you know, slacks with an elastic

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waistband, because that's that was the woman that I saw that

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was successful. And I think that's also something that has

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been huge that way he is really coming into my own comfort zone,

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figuring out who I am rather than who I think I'm supposed to

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be, or who I think other people want me to be. So that was

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that's my biggest growth I think we should definitely focus on is

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be yourself, even if you and yourself is very different from

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someone else's self.

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Oh, I love that. I think that's a great reminder. Thank you both

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so much for coming on. Can you tell people where they can find

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you if you want to be found?

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If I want to be bad, I have never had that said that way.

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And I absolutely love it. You can find me I'm happy to be

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found. You can find me at Kendricks I'm your source. Okay

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and dry X underscore on any social platform that exists. And

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I my DMs are always open if you have questions, concerns or just

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want to talk about the games industry DOTA or esports. I'm

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here for all of it. So be prepared to hear about Dota

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I am Joanie crowd on all platforms. I think on some of

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them I have a period between my first and my last name because

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I'm sorry taking Can you believe that? You can also find Wiki at

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get Wiki on all social platforms and we are also at get wiki.com

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Because getting wiggy with

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that.

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If you didn't want me to say it, you shouldn't have chosen that.

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Now everyone's gonna be singing in after this podcast. They're

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all gonna be like living it up. And then whenever when they hear

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the actual song, like I knew what or that's really cool.

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Isn't the name get wiggy it's best branding. Just yeah, it's

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great breathing.

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For our listeners, thank you so much for joining me. Don't

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forget new episodes drop every Tuesday. Be sure

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At the five star ratings and reviews, and check out the other

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podcasts in the holodeck Media Network, including metaphysis.

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For all the metaverse finance stories you could ever want more

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Metaverse stuff. We're gonna keep saying Metaverse until it

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sounds weird, and business of esports for interviews with

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industry leaders. You can catch me Wednesday nights on the

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business of esports live after show and you can catch this

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podcast and your feed every week. We'll see ya next week.

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Thanks for joining us here on meta woman. Make sure to

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subscribe to this podcast everywhere you get your

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podcasts, leave a five star review and tell your friends

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family and colleagues all about us. Also, make sure to follow

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meta TV on all socials to get more of the best Metaverse

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content anywhere. Tune in every week for another episode of meta

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About the Podcast

META Woman
Weekly metaverse content - for women, by women
Meta Woman will focus on addressing the issues, opportunities, and challenges facing women in the development of the Metaverse. Top female executives and business people operating within the gaming and crypto industries bring a wide range of perspectives through regular guest appearances.