Episode 12

full
Published on:

23rd Feb 2022

12. School of Rock...et League?

Danielle Rourke, Senior Higher Education Strategist at Dell Technologies, joins me today! We discuss how esports can teach similar skills as traditional sports, and can reach more students(including neurotypically diverse students), what tools are out there, and how different levels in education are responding to esports. Danielle also shares an insane amount of good research in the field, and tells us that laying down breaks aren't as effective as walking around breaks (sad for sloths like me).

Episode Resources:

https://corporate.delltechnologies.com/en-us/social-impact/transforming-lives/education/girls-who-game.htm#tab0=0

https://www.teamliquid.com/alienware/

https://esportsinsider.com/2021/06/team-liquid-and-alienware-launch-good-in-gaming-platform/#:~:text=Multi%2Dregional%20esports%20organisation%20Team,%2C%20empowerment%20and%20inclusive%20competition

https://medium.com/@nicolas.besombes

https://medium.com/@nicolas.besombes/esports-professions-e402a1c3ab92

https://bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/7/3/e001118

https://www.ijesports.org/article/59/html

Transcript
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Welcome to the meta woman podcast we address the

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issues, opportunities and challenges facing women in the

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development of the metaverse the biggest revolution since the

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internet itself. Every week we bring you conversations with top

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gaming and crypto industries. Here's your host Lindsey the

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boss pass the metal woman podcast starts now.

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Hello, and welcome to the metal woman podcast part of the high

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politics media Podcast Network until I do these intros live

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because I every once in a while I have a stumble. I'm your host

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was your backpack from struggled to success recovering and all

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returning listeners, thank you so much for supporting the show.

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You've heard my stumbles on these intros before. So please

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be sure to leave a five star rating and review tell friend

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about the pod. And for new listeners. Welcome. I hope you

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enjoy this show. And I hope you'll keep listening on with

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me. We have such a great guest this week. I'm so excited to

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introduce this woman. She has been not only great for me to

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learn about the gaming industry in higher ed but just a

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wonderful person to talk to and to catch up with and I've had

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the pleasure of doing that several times now. She's just a

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great resource for all things higher ed and a really great

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gaming industry. Please welcome everyone. Danielle Rourke, the

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senior higher education strategist at Dell Technologies

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to met a woman Danielle, welcome to the show. Thank you so much

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for coming on. Thank you so

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much, Lindsay, for having me. I'm incredibly excited. longtime

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listener first time person on the show.

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First time callers with the old radio thing. Exactly. Sadly, I

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just started if you wouldn't mind just giving the audience a

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couple sentences of your background, let us know who you

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are what you do all that good stuff.

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Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So I am actually a senior higher

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education strategist with Dell Technologies. And prior to that,

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I've been here for about two years prior to that, I worked at

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the University of Colorado Boulder as an Associate Director

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in their IT department, and never actually thought I would

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leave academia, because I did love it. But got this

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opportunity to be a part of this team. And the Education Strategy

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Team at Dell is incredibly unique because we are all former

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educators, administrators within education. Somehow we've got

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those who are focused on K 12, that were former teachers,

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principals, superintendents, and those of us from high Ed, who

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were former CIOs, former CISOs former academic learning

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technology directors, we even have a PhD chemist and a

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librarian. So we cover a wide gamut of the education industry.

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And we're able to bring all of those experiences together, we

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like to say that we each have our own superpowers. And so

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combined were like this amazing Avengers team for education, and

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technology. And so that was just too good of an opportunity for

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me to pass up. So that's why I came to Dell. Prior to Dell, and

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CU Boulder, I was actually really just in software and

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application development, my whole career. Being a tester, a

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project manager, business analyst, a systems analyst. So

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I've had a really cool career in tech. And yeah, have really

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enjoyed it.

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So neat, I will say too, so we're going to get into this to

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provide you all some context, you all being more, Danielle

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runs both an excellent Discord server and among monthly

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research calls, that both center on presenting the research,

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particularly within education, is really, really fun. And I

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think that this goes to show your history and education,

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because I do always find people who run calls that have a

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background in education has such an exacting and clear to follow

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approach, very classroom style. I always know I'm going to get a

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clear agenda beforehand. And after and during there's going

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to be someone to kind of push along the conversation or

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curtail it when necessary, or it's always very well, right.

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And so for those of you who didn't research, I highly

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recommend both of those tools, which will link to in the show

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notes. And you just have awesome access to a lot of what is

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happening in the world of academia. As somebody who comes

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from an academic research background, I love what we talk

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about public papers. I'm sure you do as well. And I know that

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you have aside from research called and that is for server,

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focus on education, publishing, academia, all that good stuff.

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Let's have the summer esports conference, K through 12 esports

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networking group, and gaming nonprofits like the varsity

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esports foundation support for gaming nonprofits like the

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Merseyside foundation ladies, climax in gaming, so on and so

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on. So you are doing a lot. We're definitely gonna link to a

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lot of stuff in the show notes. But I just say all that to give

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some of the audience a little bit of context for what you do.

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And with that in mind, my first question comes straight from

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you. With us so kindly sent over some topics for today. So, like

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I said, you can tell you come from academia, because

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I also love color coded spreadsheets. So

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it's kind of type A personality for sure. Could you tell us why

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esports should be part of higher education? What opportunity to

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offer universities? I know you had mentioned some research from

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Nico besom. As far as the answer, I hope I pronounced his

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name correctly. But why should esports be in higher ed?

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Yeah, absolutely. So this is a question I actually do get a lot

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from educators and schools who are kind of interested in it.

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But you know, there's still kind of that outdated perception of

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isn't at all just playing video games in your basement and

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eating Cheetos and drinking Mountain Dew. And sometimes,

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yeah, sometimes it is that, but it's also so much more so

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especially in education, you know, whether that's k 12, or

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higher ed, we've seen esports be an incredible community builder.

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And it really allows students not only to have voice and

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choice in how they're learning and how they're participating in

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school activities, but also allows them to find their tribe,

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you know, and to be a part of a community that is doing things

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and is passionate about something that they're already

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passionate, and they love. You know, and so we have a ton of

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examples, just from from both higher education in K 12. You

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know, one of our really good friends Kyle burger down in

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Grapevine. Colleyville in Texas, you know, he talks about how

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their K through 12 program, 70% of the kids that are involved in

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it weren't involved in any other extracurricular activity on

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campus. And then you also have, you know, like 10% of their

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program, I think he said, our students who are on the spectrum

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who maybe didn't feel like they could be involved in other

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activities, or didn't feel comfortable in those activities.

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And so, to me, that is the biggest primary driver of why

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schools need to be involved in this because it is meeting the

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students where they are, it's something that they're already

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passionate about something that they are doing on their own

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without anybody telling them that they have to. And schools,

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both k 12. and higher ed can really provide that foundation

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and can provide incredible structures to make sure that as

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the students are participating in these activities that they're

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passionate about, that they have that social emotional learning

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background, that they understand diversity, equity inclusion,

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they understand how to win well, as well as how to lose well. So

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it's an incredible opportunity for any educational institution

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to provide that structure and those good guidance, and, you

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know, activities and processes and systems in place, but also

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allow the students to do something that they love, and

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they're passionate about.

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Activists really need are you when you talk about esports? Are

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you talking about both kinds of clubs, where they might play in

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for entertainment games for fun, and do specifically developed

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for education? Or are you do you focus more on one than the

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other? Yeah, I

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mean, it really depends on where the program wants to go. So for

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example, you know, we'll talk a little bit later, probably about

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girls who game, but that utilizes Minecraft for

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education. And, you know, Minecraft has actually built in

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some esports competition activities. And we do that with

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our girls game program. So that is one of the programs that I

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would say, you know, yes, a lot of people play it for fun, and

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because it's just really cool. And, you know, the, the

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creatures make funny noises. But you know, there's also a

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learning aspect to it, there's, you know, you use bone meal to

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help your plants grow better, and the interaction between the

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different kinds of materials and, you know, learning about

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economics, even as far as like diamonds. So, so there's

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definitely that aspect. But, you know, most of the time when

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people think about esports, just, you know, kind of, in big

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capital letters that is more focused on the recreational

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games that are very, very popular in the mainstream, that

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are very popular in the professional esports scene, but

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bringing that to a high school or collegiate or maybe even a

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middle school level, and having those interactions. But, you

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know, I'm glad you brought that up, Lindsey, because it's, it's

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such an important piece of it, too, is that there are so many

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learning opportunities there. There's teamwork, there's a

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collaboration, there's strategy. There's analytics, there are,

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you know, the logistics of pulling together a huge event.

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Those are all things that can serve those students in, you

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know, their future educational career as well as their

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professional career.

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Absolutely. I think that's such a good point because I come from

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a traditional sports background as many of our longtime

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listeners know I do find that a lot of the same things that I

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was taught in traditional sports are, can be very well applied

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into anything well structured, well run, encouraging and

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inclusive, esports programs. I think that that's absolutely

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true without that kind of teamwork, that kind of

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collaboration, quick thinking, decision making, all of that can

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be learned just form a virtual world as it can with a sports

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team. So I think it's, it's really great, especially for

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newer, typically diverse students, like you mentioned

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earlier, that courses now new possibilities and new schools.

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And that end, how have you seen the interest grow in your time?

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First, as someone who is in the technology field, and then as

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someone who's an educator, analisar, who work in education

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technology in that overlap? What have you seen in the growth and

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I, I was originally just going to ask about the university

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level, but I'd love to hear how you've seen all levels of

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education, grow and incorporate this more and kind of the change

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you see in the media, in your career, 510 years in the

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interest levels? And how schools are incorporating it? What's up

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and looking like?

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Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I would say that there was

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definitely a growing interest it was growing, it was becoming

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more popular, we see the data and the numbers behind that, I

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would venture to say that, you know, the, the events of the

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past two years have actually encouraged that growth. And Ben

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even more of a catalyst for that growth, because so many, you

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know, in person sports, like what you were just talking about

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Lindsay, they weren't able to safely compete, they weren't

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able to safely be together and, you know, get that close contact

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that you often have with traditional sports. And so

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esports really allowed schools to keep students involved, it

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allowed students to make sure that they had connections that

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they had people that they could play with that they had

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activities that there was, you know, something scheduled to

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look forward to. And so we really saw a lot of the virtual

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esports programs just light up and, and even more leadership

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at, you know, whether that's at a school district level, or

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whether at an administration level for a college, they

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recognize the fact that okay, everything else is down right

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now, what can we do to get these students motivated, involved,

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encouraged, you know, keep them together and keep their spirits

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high. And so esports really facilitated that for a lot of

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schools. So we saw an uptick in interest there. And now that

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we're starting to kind of figure this whole like, masked vaccine,

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six feet apart thing, you know, and being able to have safer in

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person events, we're seeing it just continue to grow, like, you

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know, it didn't stop or slow down, coming back into person.

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And so we've seen a lot of schools that are very interested

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in that. But I'm really encouraged by the fact that so

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many schools are starting to recognize that there's more than

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just community and it's more than just having fun. I

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actually, I think I've talked with you about this before,

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Lindsey, I call it I need to, like trademark this thing. But I

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call it the esports engagement pyramid is kind of my theory.

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And so you know, at that base level of the pyramid, you've got

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community involvement and collaboration and just, you

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know, building that those ties to the students themselves and

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to the schools. And that's great. And if that is the level

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that most school programs stay at, that's still a huge benefit,

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and has so many of those other aspects that we were talking

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about. But I feel like then there's the second level of

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adding in curricular and academic achievements, you know,

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let's educate these students on how can they get a job in this

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industry? How can they stay and actually support themselves and

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make money doing something that's they're passionate about?

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And, and it doesn't have to just be esports? We actually see the

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majority of, you know, this is kind of transitioning into the

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college question that you asked Lindsay, as far as, you know, we

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see courses, certificate programs, degree programs,

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around esports, business management, or, you know, AV

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setups, or just different aspects so that it's not purely

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esports. It's where you're taking those other trainings and

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education that you get from being an HR person or a payroll

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person or a physical therapist or management trainee, you know,

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you can bring those into the esports industry. And so I'm

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super excited that schools are starting to recognize that and

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actually build out that curriculum and also recognize

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that it can be a revenue stream for the schools because that's a

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new program that not every school has and can attract

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students to them. And then the top of the pyramid is like you

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talked about earlier research, you know, just the academic

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rigorous research Around esports you know, much like, back in the

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70s and 80s, there was this really groundswell of research

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around traditional sports to help make it safer and healthier

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for the athletes. We're starting to see that now as well, for

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esports.

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I do think you should trademark the pyramid. It's a great idea

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that you should spread the pyramids hard. Why? Cuz I think

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that that's a very kind of unique and visual way of

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understanding the whole thing, what the whole ecosystem looks

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like, as he says, following on that, aren't there any. I asked

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this because I wrote actually early on in this pandemic, a an

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op ed that never went up getting published about using discord

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for after school activities, and how even physical activities

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could be worked in my head, this whole thing about competitions

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via discord and all this, all the stuff that I thought was a

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way to help students in schools models and other programs that

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I've read, anyway. Are there any platform or technologies out

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there already? That you're, you're kind of seeing and

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thinking, wow, this is definitely a great thing for

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schools. I know you already mentioned define craft, but any

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other things, any other tools that gaming has brought us like

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discord, or any, even Roblox all that stuff? What tools are out

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there that you are really excited about that have been

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really easily translated into the space?

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That's a great question. Because there are a lot. And it's

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difficult to name a couple, by the way, I want to read that op

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ed that never sent it to me. But you know, you mentioned discord.

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And that is a great tool. As long as the students are of a

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certain age, you know, if they're under I think it's like

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13. You know, it's it's very difficult for them to utilize

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that. I know, with the girls game program, we've used

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Microsoft Teams. I know that there have been yeah, there's

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just been some other platforms as well. Yeah, definitely. And

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most schools have access to it. So it's something that, you

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know, can be monitored by the school officials make sure that

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everyone is being, you know, safe and inclusive, and their

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language and everything. You know, I would just say there's,

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oh, gosh, there's a ton of them. We're seeing more and more, you

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know, devices, actually two that are trying to help gamers come

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out that, you know, Microsoft has their accessibility

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controller, that just makes sure that all students can be

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involved in can play. And that's the great thing about esports,

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too, is that it's, you know, you don't have to be the tallest kid

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in the room to play it, you don't have to be the strongest

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or the fastest. So it's just wonderful to be able to be

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inclusive to as many people as possible. I would say, you know,

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Roblox we've seen some really cool and interesting

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adaptations, some new programs being built within the Roblox

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platform. So I'm kind of keeping my eye on that a little bit. You

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know, we also want to make sure that any tools that are out

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there that help the students learn about digital literacy.

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You know, Adele, we actually some of my amazing colleagues

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have built out some incredible digital literacy tools. And

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that's important in gaming and an esports, as well as just in

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their normal educational outlooks. So I would say, you

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know, there's always more tools coming out. AR VR is going to be

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pretty big. I think once. Once we get some of the logistical

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issues figured out, I think, yeah, AR VR provides so many

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great learning and immersive opportunities. So yes, those are

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just some of the things I'm keeping my eyes on.

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Very cool. So we've talked a lot about kind of feel like we've

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we've covered a lot of the K through 12 stuff. And this is

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something that you briefly mentioned about college programs

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that are starting to create disciplines or create majors or

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certificate programs that are in esports. But I want to talk a

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little bit about the the pathway right after college or right

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after high school. So when you're choosing a college, and

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then after college when you're actually in the job market. So

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that kind of pipeline of those three little steps. And there's

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obviously a much longer pipeline through there. But how have you

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seen the change in schools? And what have you seen that makes

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you excited about schools, thinking more about how to

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incorporate esports just into that part? Both kids coming out

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of high school looking for universities, I think that

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there's a good advertising element for schools that have

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esports programs. And then I think that once kids are ready

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to enter the job market once they're graduate, there's a good

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learning element of having the things that you might need to

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get into the gaming industry by having those programs. So are

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you having your conversations with schools about why we should

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do this? Because I I think we both agree that it's a good idea

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for schools to incorporate more esports. And even the

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surrounding peripheries, esports, management, event

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management, marketing, business, all that good stuff into their

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curriculum. That's the first part. Are you seeing? Are you

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having fewer conversations about why we should do this? And the

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second part of that question is, are you have we reached kind of

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a tipping point where you feel like, Finally, there's a lot of

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options for students, as schools are really starting to offer

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these programs? Are we still kind of working towards making

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this highly available?

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Those are fantastic questions. I love that. So to answer the

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first one, as far as you know, am I having less of those? Why

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should we do it conversations a little bit, I would say, if I'm

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going to be completely honest, there's still a lot of, you

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know, I don't want to I don't want to make it about age or

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anything. But there's a lot of the generations that didn't grow

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up with video games, that still don't quite understand all of

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those different applications don't understand that you can

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make money and have a legitimate career, I actually was just

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talking with a public school district, Friday of last week,

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and, you know, showed the students and said, Okay, if this

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is where your interest lies, then build your case for your

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parents build your case for your teachers, and say, These are the

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disciplines. These are the jobs that are out there available in

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this world. And here are some example, job postings with some

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example salaries. So you know, these are actual companies not

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fly by night, you know, just started yesterday, but then they

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also have actual salaries posted. So that's something that

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we definitely encourage. So I would say it's starting to get

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better. We're having more discussions around how, as

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opposed to why so you know, how do we implement this into our

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curriculum? How do we tie it with whatever makes that

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particular school or university unique? So you have, you know,

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some schools that are really highly praised for their

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business programs. They're looking at it more from an a

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Business Administration viewpoint and a talent support

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viewpoint. You may have other schools that, like, New York

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Institute of Technology comes to mind. They are incredible when

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it comes to health and medicine. And so they're looking at it a

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little bit more from how do we make sure that these athletes

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are staying healthy, that they're getting a good balance

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of mental physical and emotional support while they're involved

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in these esports programs. So I think it's incredible that we're

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having a little bit more of those how conversations, as

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opposed to just purely the why so but, but there are still

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quite a few way conversations out there. But that's what you

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and I are here for Lyndsey. And then, as far as you know how how

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they're working into it, what that pipeline looks like you

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mentioned Nikko, the Psalms earlier, and he is a fantastic

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researcher, if the listeners haven't gone out and looked him

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up on medium, a lot of his articles and research are out

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there on medium as well as the esports Research Network, and

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the International Journal of esports. So definitely go out

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and and browse through some of that content. But he has this

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amazing kind of mind map out there called esports related

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professions. And I utilize it and give him credit as much as I

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possibly can, because it just shows this incredible web of

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different types of esports jobs, gaming jobs that are out there,

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that people you know, maybe don't even think about whether

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it's media, or whether it's events, organization, or even,

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you know, Journalism and Broadcasting or even education,

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because you have to be able to train people to go into these

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different types of roles. So, you know, I think it's

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fantastic. We are definitely building the pipeline, I would

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say there's a lot of room for growth. There are some

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incredible studies out there, which we'll probably talk about

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in a little bit, but that are documenting Where are all of the

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collegiate programs, whether they're courses, certificates,

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degree programs, minors, majors, etc. Where are they at? What are

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the schools that are offering them? You know, what are the

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schools that are really ahead of their time in understanding that

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this is an industry that we need to be able to train students

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for, and give them that education to to do these jobs?

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Well, so I think we're growing. I think there's still a lot of

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room for growth. And I'm excited to see where it goes.

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That's awesome. I'm glad to know that the space is that the

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education space is has been more amenable to incorporating mes.

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And I do think it's not easy, but I think that's the I suppose

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the easiest way to get involved is just to allow students to

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start a club. And I'm glad to hear that a lot of universities

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are going beyond that. And then administration is starting to

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get interested or at least listen to us. Like yourself when

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they talk about the good that esports and gaming can bring to

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the university. So that's encouraging, pivoting a little

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bit, talk them about girls who game. But I would love to hear

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more. We've covered some aspects of inclusivity. Thus far, but

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you tell me a little bit more about the growth hacking

Unknown:

program, what you're hoping to do with it, how you're trying to

Unknown:

improve the key, bringing more women into the games industry,

Unknown:

something obviously we care about the man or woman podcast.

Unknown:

I can just tell me a little bit more about that. Yeah,

Unknown:

absolutely.

Unknown:

So girls game was started by my amazing colleague Katina pulka,

Unknown:

shout out to the Canadians here, listening. And it was just

Unknown:

wonderful. It really stemmed from, you know, her going to

Unknown:

different events, or, you know, being involved in esports, and

Unknown:

education. But noticing that there weren't a whole lot of

Unknown:

girls, there was predominantly boys, or those that identified

Unknown:

as boys. And, you know, so when she would meet a girl or a

Unknown:

female identifying student, she would say, you know, why, where,

Unknown:

where are your friends? Like, what are you the only one here?

Unknown:

And most of the time she would get answers back, you know, oh,

Unknown:

they thought this was a boy thing. Oh, they didn't think

Unknown:

that they could compete. Oh, they, you know, they just didn't

Unknown:

think it was for them. And so that really led her to dive into

Unknown:

the research. And, you know, some of the research that we

Unknown:

got, you know, less than 50% of high school girls know, a woman

Unknown:

in a STEM career. And women are 50% of the workforce, but only

Unknown:

around 28% of the science and engineering workforce. So those

Unknown:

were things that we were like, wow, these are, you know, where

Unknown:

does this come from. And the majority of the research that we

Unknown:

were finding, you know, really says that it's kind of that

Unknown:

fourth or eighth grade period, like, there are a lot of girls

Unknown:

who want to be scientists or technologists or you know,

Unknown:

whatever, before fourth grade, but after fourth grade, it

Unknown:

starts to drop off. And we've actually heard that in

Unknown:

discussions with some of the colleges like I had a

Unknown:

conversation with someone around that here in Colorado. And they

Unknown:

said, you know, when, when women start off in a tech degree,

Unknown:

there's, it's usually like a 6040 5050, split between female

Unknown:

and men in the technology degree. And then by the time

Unknown:

they finish, it's, it's very rarely over 10%, as far as the

Unknown:

class, the graduating class. So, you know, what could we do,

Unknown:

especially as a technology company, and as a technology

Unknown:

company that is very, very focused on making sure that

Unknown:

women are a part of the STEM workforce, and making sure that

Unknown:

women have leadership roles within that STEM workforce. And

Unknown:

so we came up with this program, girls who game that is focused

Unknown:

on that fourth through eighth grade range to make sure that

Unknown:

those girls understand that they have support. So for example,

Unknown:

it's really based around three pillars. The first one is that

Unknown:

it's a girl centric ecosystem, it gives them a community, it

Unknown:

allows them to learn from each other and build that confidence,

Unknown:

and see that there are others like them that are interested in

Unknown:

these things. The second pillar is authentic application. So

Unknown:

that's really learner driven experiences in STEM, but also

Unknown:

developing global competencies. So every semester when we have a

Unknown:

new girls game cohort, we decide, you know, as a group,

Unknown:

what are the UN sustainability goals that we're going to focus

Unknown:

on for this particular project? Yeah, it is really cool. Um, we,

Unknown:

we love exposing them to the fact that there is a broader

Unknown:

world and that there are worldwide issues that they can

Unknown:

actually help and make a huge difference on. So, you know, for

Unknown:

example, we've had eateries of the future where they have to

Unknown:

think about sustainability and clean water and, you know,

Unknown:

accessibility and things like that, how are you going to make

Unknown:

sure that people in wheelchairs or people with any kind of

Unknown:

disability might be able to get into your eatery of the future.

Unknown:

So those are all very, very important aspects of the

Unknown:

program. And then that final pillar is mentorship, we

Unknown:

actually provide opportunities via Flipgrid. There's another

Unknown:

tool that's important in education, Lindsey, they, you

Unknown:

know, doing kind of that asynchronous mentoring, we pair

Unknown:

the girls who are in the program up with adult mentors, who are,

Unknown:

you know, most frequently women in the technology industry,

Unknown:

whether that's from Dell or from Microsoft, it's a huge

Unknown:

partnership with Microsoft, so shout out to them, thank you.

Unknown:

But providing that, you know, the the the old saying that you

Unknown:

can't be what you can't see, we want to make sure that they can

Unknown:

see women in technology. So yeah, it's incredibly important.

Unknown:

I've been a judge and a program, mentor, and you know, all kinds

Unknown:

of things for the program. We do build esports competitions in at

Unknown:

the end of the cohort. So once they're all done with their

Unknown:

projects that they're making, then we could have fun and do an

Unknown:

esports competition and a celebration. And it's just

Unknown:

amazing hearing the feedback from the girls and seeing their

Unknown:

eyes light up about the fact that other people like the same

Unknown:

things that they do and that it's okay it is cool. For them

Unknown:

to be interested in technology.

Unknown:

I love that you include us sustainability goals. I went to,

Unknown:

I went to grad school for policy management, but I focused in

Unknown:

international trade development. So I'm extremely familiar with.

Unknown:

That was something that I spent quite a lot of time on. So

Unknown:

that's such a funny kind of crossover that has been one of

Unknown:

the most fun parts about working in gaming, right, is that I get

Unknown:

to crossover with so many other things on I studies and have

Unknown:

been interested in for years. So that's a funny little shout out.

Unknown:

And what a throwback for me, so that I felt like, right back in

Unknown:

my grad school program, whoa, I thought about that. But

Unknown:

just like you said, I mean, that's, that's the wonderful

Unknown:

thing to me about esports and gaming. I mean, like, I've been

Unknown:

a gamer nerd, since I was a little girl, and just the

Unknown:

connections that I've built, and the you know, whether that's

Unknown:

just social or professional, and, you know, the friends that

Unknown:

I've made, and the things that I've learned, just from my

Unknown:

experience in gaming have been a huge part of who I am. And so

Unknown:

you know, girls game and other programs, just getting students

Unknown:

involved, just helping them to understand that this is cool,

Unknown:

this is a good thing. This is something you can be involved in

Unknown:

and something that you can make a difference

Unknown:

with. Yeah, very neat. Beth, your colleagues and the

Unknown:

supporters of that. Very cool, how holistic approaches to Oh,

Unknown:

that's awesome. And another program I know you're involved

Unknown:

in, is the good end gaming program that you're doing with

Unknown:

liquid and Alienware. I would love to hear more about that. It

Unknown:

seems like a lot of these programs have the goal of

Unknown:

creating positive environments for kids to be able to learn and

Unknown:

develop and grow. But yeah, bump your bar about good in gaming as

Unknown:

well.

Unknown:

Yeah, absolutely. So yes, good. And gaming was kind of a

Unknown:

brainchild between Alienware and Teamliquid, in saying, you know,

Unknown:

how can we give back? How can we make sure that we're focusing on

Unknown:

students and young people and helping them achieve their goals

Unknown:

and their dreams, you know, whether that's going to work for

Unknown:

Team Liquid or going to work for a gaming company or a hardware

Unknown:

manufacturer like Dell or Alienware? You know, so the, the

Unknown:

basis of it was that we believe everyone should have the

Unknown:

opportunity to pursue a career within the gaming industry in

Unknown:

some way. And so really good and gaming tries to help develop

Unknown:

that pathway in and there are a few different elements to the

Unknown:

program, you know, the first one is, is grow. And so that means,

Unknown:

you know, no matter what your background is, we really want to

Unknown:

be there to support you and in a broad mix of gaming esports

Unknown:

roles, etc. So there are a lot of different hands on learning

Unknown:

programs, there's actually Teamliquid and Alienware

Unknown:

Internship Program, where they teach you about portfolio and

Unknown:

career building, give you career advice, help you make those

Unknown:

personal and professional networking connections. And then

Unknown:

there's the Learn aspect to it. And there's actually this

Unknown:

incredible series that they've been doing and publishing out

Unknown:

there on YouTube, which I've shared in that Discord server

Unknown:

that you mentioned earlier, Lindsay and said, you know, hey,

Unknown:

add this to your curriculum for your esports programs, whether

Unknown:

they're clubs or whether they're actual academic programs. But

Unknown:

for example, you know, one of the recent ones was a day in the

Unknown:

life of an esports team manager. So they interview the team,

Unknown:

liquid esports, team manager and say, what do you do on a daily

Unknown:

basis? What does that really look like to give students and

Unknown:

young people that insight into Okay, do I think I want to do

Unknown:

that or is maybe that role not for me, but I want to do

Unknown:

something else. And then obviously, the compete they

Unknown:

host, you know, Rocket League tournaments and a few other

Unknown:

tournaments. There's an Alienware tournament series

Unknown:

Discord server out there, too. So, you know, making sure that

Unknown:

you're tying the learning and the growth with fun. And there's

Unknown:

also some opportunities out there for scholarships and

Unknown:

things like that. So just just really focusing on providing

Unknown:

those opportunities to young people who are interested in

Unknown:

getting into this industry.

Unknown:

We talked about the pipeline again, that's such a good way of

Unknown:

inserting yourself early and in a positive way. I certainly hope

Unknown:

that more of our programs kind of bring up although I think

Unknown:

that this is a this is a good one to start with, for sure. The

Unknown:

shifting gears for a second. And this is something that you

Unknown:

mentioned earlier, and I'm extra excited to hear your answer. But

Unknown:

is there any research that you're especially excited about

Unknown:

that has been published recently? What have you kept

Unknown:

your eye on? What excites you what's out there?

Unknown:

Okay, how long do we have? All right. So there is a ton of

Unknown:

research and guests so you know, you mentioned earlier Lindsay

Unknown:

about and thank you for attending that meeting, but that

Unknown:

we have that esports research collaborative every month and

Unknown:

there are just so many brilliant Didn't individual's

Unknown:

psychologist, researchers, doctors, you know, coaches

Unknown:

directors that are on that call every month and are really there

Unknown:

just to help build the community and to make it stronger and to

Unknown:

help support each other. In research and in studies, you

Unknown:

know, we've had opportunities come out of that call, where

Unknown:

researchers who maybe didn't know each other before, get

Unknown:

together and they say, Hey, I really liked what you said

Unknown:

there. What other work are you doing? Let's collaborate on a

Unknown:

study together and get it published. Also, you know, we've

Unknown:

utilized that group for help with study participants, because

Unknown:

you need to have esports layers if you're going to be doing

Unknown:

esports research. So being able to have those connections has

Unknown:

been really, really critical. And one of the the pieces of

Unknown:

research that kind of came out of one of those connections,

Unknown:

major shout out to Dr. Joanne Donohue, and Dr. Seth, Jenny,

Unknown:

and a few others who participated in that. Last year,

Unknown:

there was an original research study, published in the BMJ

Unknown:

journals, the BMJ open Sport and Exercise medicine journal,

Unknown:

volume seven, Issue three, if you're curious, but it was

Unknown:

titled, I may have my screen, I may be cheating a little bit. I

Unknown:

was. I was all about honesty, I love that out is. So that that

Unknown:

study that they did was breaking up prolonged sitting with a six

Unknown:

minute walk improves executive function in women and men,

Unknown:

esports players, it was a randomized trial that they did,

Unknown:

where they really wanted to see, you know, does physical activity

Unknown:

while you're gaming while you're playing esports games and

Unknown:

competing, does that help? Or does that hinder your

Unknown:

performance and so, you know, they utilized a lot of amazing

Unknown:

tools that are, you know, common or popular in the research

Unknown:

industry to measure cognitive development and cognitive

Unknown:

performance. And so, you know, they, they had very rigorous

Unknown:

outlined, well outlined plans for this research, and they

Unknown:

asked the participants to, you know, play a little bit and then

Unknown:

maybe take a rest just with their eyes away from the screen,

Unknown:

but not moving. And then they would ask them to play for a

Unknown:

while and then take a rest, but get up and take a six minute

Unknown:

walk, and then play a while and take a rest but go lay down, you

Unknown:

know, and like close your eyes or something to have that supine

Unknown:

rest. And so based on the study, they did find that having a six

Unknown:

minute walking break, where you were up, you're stretching,

Unknown:

you're getting blood flowing, it actually helped and improved the

Unknown:

cognitive performance scores. So it's incredible. And I really

Unknown:

love that particular research because I think it's so critical

Unknown:

that we have that kind of rigorous academic study that is

Unknown:

showing the true link between physical capabilities, physical

Unknown:

you know, just being mindful of your how much you're moving your

Unknown:

body, and what you're getting your body to move. So you're not

Unknown:

just sitting at a screen grinding for 11 hours a day.

Unknown:

That's not the way to maintain a healthy balance and to maintain

Unknown:

a sustainable career in esports. So I think we need to have more

Unknown:

and more of that kind of research that provides those

Unknown:

statistics and that respected scientific analysis that will

Unknown:

ultimately help colleges and universities recognize that

Unknown:

okay, there is something here we just need to make sure that we

Unknown:

implement safe and healthy programs to encourage it. So

Unknown:

that's one of my favorites. The other one that I'm going to say

Unknown:

and I know we've brought up Dr.

Unknown:

Really quick Oh, yeah, yeah, sure. Um, I would love to say

Unknown:

that I am well aware that things like six minute walk would be

Unknown:

good for me. Going to bed early would be good for me. That

Unknown:

happens in real life are not a different story. I was really

Unknown:

hoping that you were gonna say that the six minutes to find

Unknown:

sleeping bags I'm really absolutely yeah. I was really

Unknown:

hoping that the leg was gonna be as equal to the

Unknown:

that's the whole thing, right? You make a hypothesis and then

Unknown:

you test it out what is really,

Unknown:

really sad as a result. But anyway, I apologize. I just had

Unknown:

to get that out there for all the all the blogs out there like

Unknown:

be like their break leg down. No, it is fantastic.

Unknown:

Sleep is also a good part of a healthy balance. So yeah, I'm

Unknown:

really going to

Unknown:

sleep exact never stick Anyway, please tell me about the second

Unknown:

paper that you're going to write?

Unknown:

Yeah, no worries. Um, so this one was actually published in

Unknown:

the International Journal of esports. And again, we have Dr.

Unknown:

Seth Jenny, we've got Dr. Nicholas disarms, and we've got

Unknown:

Dr. Joey grazie, AK and That one was an inventory and analysis of

Unknown:

global higher education esports academic programming and

Unknown:

curricula, which is a mouthful. But essentially, it was a study

Unknown:

that they did together to look at those worldwide academic

Unknown:

programs that were associated with esports. And to say, you

Unknown:

know, how many of these are actually differentiating

Unknown:

themselves as esports academic programs that are truly teaching

Unknown:

students, about esports, about competition about the careers

Unknown:

that they could have, you know, and kind of analyzing, you know,

Unknown:

which which programs maybe just stuck in IE on the front of it

Unknown:

and said, Let's go. So it's an incredible paper, they put a lot

Unknown:

of work into it, they made so many great contacts. And the

Unknown:

thing that I love about it, kind of to what we were saying

Unknown:

earlier, Lindsey, is the fact that it shows, you know, without

Unknown:

a doubt that esports and academic applications of esports

Unknown:

and preparing students for the careers in this field is 100%.

Unknown:

Growing, it is around the world. You know, we are seeing a ton in

Unknown:

the US we're starting to see some in the UK, European

Unknown:

countries as well. You know, shout out to my friends at

Unknown:

University of Twente in the Netherlands, they do some

Unknown:

amazing cognitive performance, like neural networking research

Unknown:

for their esports athletes. So there is a huge growth in the

Unknown:

academic space, both curriculum and research wise, for esports.

Unknown:

And for gaming and players to keep everybody healthy and to

Unknown:

create opportunities for those jobs. And to make sure that

Unknown:

everyone has the skills, they need to go into that industry.

Unknown:

That is so great to hear. And I'm sure if any, any of our

Unknown:

listeners out there are looking for and give a resource on what

Unknown:

universities are doing and inventory sounds like a great

Unknown:

place to start with that in mind that we've covered the real

Unknown:

world. Let's talk about the metaverse a little bit. This is

Unknown:

the metal on my podcast. And Gosh, darn it. We're gonna talk

Unknown:

about the metaverse until someone says I can't. Let's go

Unknown:

for it. I just I just wanted to ask you a little like what the

Unknown:

metaverse means you're XL work in education. So what does the

Unknown:

metaverse mean? As someone who works at a hardware and

Unknown:

technology company? Who is working on real world stuff and

Unknown:

education? What kinds of things are you looking for? Or looking

Unknown:

out for with the development of whatever the metaverse is?

Unknown:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I love the way that you phrase

Unknown:

that Lindsey because I've been thinking about this a lot

Unknown:

because it's it's one of those things that everybody uses it

Unknown:

right? Everybody says Metaverse as a buzzword like, you know,

Unknown:

we're going to start seeing ads for potato chips in the

Unknown:

metaverse just because people want to jump on the bandwagon.

Unknown:

So, um, you know, I love the way that you phrase that as far as

Unknown:

like, what does it mean to me, because, at least in the

Unknown:

research that I've been doing, and you know, the readings and

Unknown:

watching videos and things like that, to me, it seems more like

Unknown:

this concept of the metaverse that we have right now. It it's

Unknown:

not necessarily something new, I mean, gaming has been doing it

Unknown:

for a couple decades, at least, you know, I'm thinking back to

Unknown:

the old, I'm going to show my age here, but like Second Life,

Unknown:

you know, like that, that was one of the precursors to it.

Unknown:

And, you know, World of Warcraft, Everquest you know,

Unknown:

all of these different really immersive, you know, MMO games

Unknown:

and things like that. They were creating this idea in this

Unknown:

concept of virtual worlds where, you know, in those games, you

Unknown:

were working and crafting and fighting and sleeping and

Unknown:

building relationships for a fictional universe and for a

Unknown:

fictional character. And now I think that it's more it's

Unknown:

becoming more a part of the well recognized Zeitgeist that, you

Unknown:

know, is out there in the world today, more people understand it

Unknown:

more people can kind of grasp the concept very easily. So to

Unknown:

me Metaverse right now anyways, is whatever is socially agreed

Unknown:

upon, you know, just just like, you know, history and some other

Unknown:

elements are whatever has been socially agreed upon currency,

Unknown:

you know, that everyone has agreed that that has value and

Unknown:

so we're going to take it and I think when you start to get into

Unknown:

Metaverse and NF Ts and crypto and etc. There's kind of that

Unknown:

sociological element to it of this is what everyone has agreed

Unknown:

these terms and the future of this is an means so, so I think

Unknown:

a lot of it is just society and how society is deciding to view

Unknown:

these things. I do think that there's incredible

Unknown:

opportunities. I you know, my bachelor's and my master's

Unknown:

degree, I got a good portion. Have those completed online. And

Unknown:

so I was interacting in a virtual world talking on

Unknown:

discussion boards, and, you know, doing those things with my

Unknown:

classmates. And so I do think that there's an incredible

Unknown:

opportunity for education, to utilize that to help bring

Unknown:

together not only students that are maybe in different locations

Unknown:

or with different backgrounds, but also teachers. And not just,

Unknown:

you know, I'm your classroom teacher, but I'm someone who

Unknown:

works in industry, or I'm someone who runs a podcast, or

Unknown:

I'm someone who creates art, and to be able to show and to teach

Unknown:

those students, all of those different things. I think it's

Unknown:

an incredibly powerful tool. I do want to make sure that

Unknown:

everybody is kind of walking into it with their eyes open.

Unknown:

Because, you know, with anything, and you know, we kind

Unknown:

of touched on this a little bit, you know, with, with esports.

Unknown:

With gaming, there can be toxicity there there can be, you

Unknown:

know, people who aren't being diverse and inclusive. And I

Unknown:

think all of those things will still be present in a Metaverse

Unknown:

version of our world. So we have to make sure that we're focusing

Unknown:

on how do we create better worlds? How do we actually bring

Unknown:

people together make things more inclusive and diverse, and take

Unknown:

the lessons that we've learned from previous iterations of real

Unknown:

worlds and meta versus, and, and bring that together and make a

Unknown:

better place where people can get along, collaborate, work,

Unknown:

communicate and learn together?

Unknown:

I like that idea of building a better world. I think the best.

Unknown:

Part of the reason why we're covering it on this podcast is

Unknown:

the idea of the metaverse is very new. There's a lot of

Unknown:

people are throwing it out there just to throw it out there. But

Unknown:

the problem is the people who throw it out there, just throw

Unknown:

it out there give us as much attention as the people who are

Unknown:

really trying to build an inclusive and wonderful space.

Unknown:

So if not more sometimes, you know, the early adopters and

Unknown:

things in the early kind of diehards are things really wind

Unknown:

up shaping the space. And I don't want that to happen. We

Unknown:

see that happening with things like, like crypto technology.

Unknown:

And even before that social media technology were the kind

Unknown:

of the early adopters, the early creators, early innovators,

Unknown:

really have had a handle on shaping what that was like, and

Unknown:

it hasn't had the most positive results before, for women, for

Unknown:

people of color for LGBTQIA, or other minorities. So I wanted to

Unknown:

put that out there because on this show, I think it's so easy.

Unknown:

And I'm glad that you took the time to really think about what

Unknown:

it means you I think it's so easy to write this off. Oh, it's

Unknown:

a fad. It's a trend. And it is in some regards. I talked about

Unknown:

it, we're gonna be out it if and when it becomes a huge part of

Unknown:

our daily existence. So I appreciate that. You took the

Unknown:

time to think about it, and that you took the time to evolve that

Unknown:

gaming or you have the kind of Metaverse going on. Yeah,

Unknown:

definitely have to step in

Unknown:

mind, if you don't mind, we'll do like one of the things that I

Unknown:

just, you know, something that you said there made me think

Unknown:

about this, in the fact that they you know, that's why it's

Unknown:

so important to me, for technology companies like Dell

Unknown:

Technologies like Alienware to encourage that diversification

Unknown:

of thought and bringing in those other backgrounds, bringing in

Unknown:

women bringing in people of color, bringing in different

Unknown:

socio economic statuses, you know, just make sure that you

Unknown:

are getting viewpoints and getting ideas and creativity

Unknown:

from all of those different groups. And, you know, we have

Unknown:

these amazing things called our progress made real goals, where

Unknown:

we want to make sure that we're bringing in diversity of thought

Unknown:

we want to encourage all people to apply for these roles and

Unknown:

technology. Because if we don't include everyone in technology,

Unknown:

then like you said it, we're going to just repeat the

Unknown:

mistakes of the past and not have those diversity of thoughts

Unknown:

and opinions and not be able to help bring everyone together

Unknown:

with the amazing things that technology can do. So yeah, I

Unknown:

love that you said that. And it's definitely a driving force,

Unknown:

you know, here at Dell, and especially in the work that we

Unknown:

do with educational institutions.

Unknown:

That's wonderful. I'm glad to hear that as well. Just as a

Unknown:

quick summary, before we move into our last little segment

Unknown:

that I like to do at the end of every show, we talked about how

Unknown:

esports can nd me can teach the learner skills traditional

Unknown:

sports, can also reach nerd typically diverse students or

Unknown:

students that haven't felt disconnected. Help people kind

Unknown:

of find their center community in schools from young age on

Unknown:

which is really cool. He mentioned that there's lots of

Unknown:

good tools out there. i If listeners want to they could go

Unknown:

back and turn backwards. But because we talked about a bunch

Unknown:

of different ones, this is great and that you are off on the

Unknown:

lookout for new AR and VR tools. I agree. I think it's gonna be

Unknown:

really fun. I I'm not necessarily looking forward to

Unknown:

those as a tool to move things forward. I just think they're

Unknown:

going to be Really fun. And I think they're gonna move step

Unknown:

forward, but mostly excited for the fun part. Universities are

Unknown:

getting more interested in in gaming and esports. There's

Unknown:

still different types of uptake. And you're still having

Unknown:

different levels of conversation. And depending on

Unknown:

where the university is that there is lots of good research

Unknown:

out there. Unfortunately, laying down breaks aren't as good as

Unknown:

walking breaks, is just heartbreaking. And one that you

Unknown:

mentioned that I think is going to be really useful is that the

Unknown:

inventory on esports programs, which I will happily link in the

Unknown:

show notes, the last thing we kind of talked about with

Unknown:

building the metaverse and and even in general is that,

Unknown:

including everyone offering diversity of opinion is so

Unknown:

important. You can kind of see the results of what do what not

Unknown:

doing that has yielded us thus far. And I just think we can do

Unknown:

a better job and all have a lot more fun by bringing more voices

Unknown:

completely with you on that. And I'm glad to hear it's a priority

Unknown:

on your end. For our last segment, the moment of

Unknown:

reflection, this is a question that I asked us at the end of

Unknown:

every episode, to try to give you a chance to pause, reflect

Unknown:

back of the things you've done. What is one thing you would like

Unknown:

to tell your younger self about getting into the gaming industry

Unknown:

and being successful.

Unknown:

I'm actually so excited about this because every time I listen

Unknown:

to your podcast, I look forward to this at the end. So, so talk

Unknown:

quite a bit about it. And I think what I would like to tell

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my younger self is don't give up and don't think that you won't

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have any more chances. And just to explain that a little bit.

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Like I said, I was a gamer girl from when I was little I played

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Nintendo I played on 3d Six machines, like way back in the

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day, you know, all the way up through the super fancy ray

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tracing and everything we have now. And so I was very

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passionate about it. When I was little I wanted to be a

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cinematics artist. And then life happened. I actually I, I got

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pregnant in high school, and I ended up dropping out of high

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school and I got my GED. And then I went to college and got

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my degrees but I wanted to get it in something that I knew I

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could support my family. And so I went into tech instead of

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gaming, like I was initially wanting to. And so I had kind

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of, you know, I'll admit I had kind of written off being

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involved in gaming. And then, you know, threw out my life like

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years later, you know, a decade or more later, I got this

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opportunity to be a Dell as a higher education strategist and

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to be the gaming and esports subject matter expert. And so

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just because I held on to that passion, it was still something

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I was interested in, you know, I kept it close to me, didn't mean

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that I had to go away for my opportunities to be involved in

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it professionally. And I just needed to find the right spot

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where I fit in and I could marry the other skills and the other

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experiences I had had in my life with my passion for gaming and

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having fun and being a part of this wonderful community. So I

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think it would definitely be don't give up. And there's

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always new doors and new pathways to explore.

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I'm so honored that you chose to share that story. I think that's

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a wonderful message. That's that's such a good reminder too,

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that it's never too late to start something either to get

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back points, or anything like that. I think that there's a lot

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of rushing on a lot of ends here. Okay, if it takes you a

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little longer. My dad always joked that he didn't find his

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career until the 50s. So

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sadly, exactly what what is that? You know, there's, I think

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Grandma Moses, like didn't start painting until she was like 70

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or something. So absolutely, totally agree.

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A great, a great method. Thank you so much for sharing that.

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And thank you for coming on. Where can people find you if you

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want to be found? What tools would you like to share? Love

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wants to give you a second to brag about anything you're proud

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of or get anything out there that you want the audience to be

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a part of.

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Thank you so much. Yeah, so definitely can find me on

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LinkedIn. I'm Daniel Rourke. I'm a senior higher education

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strategist at Dell Technologies. So give me a search. I'd love to

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connect and talk. And then I'm also on Twitter at high Ed

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Danielle and it's H i, Ed. Danielle, and I post way too

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often about gaming and esports. So if you're interested in that,

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definitely connect with me on Twitter.

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Thank you so much for our listeners. Don't forget to use

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those five star ratings and reviews. Be sure to check out

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the other holodeck media podcasts, including meta

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business for all the metaverse, finance stories you could ever

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want in business esports for interviews with industry

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leaders, you can catch me once a night in the business of esports

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live after show or on Twitter at one pass. And you can get this

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podcast and your feed every Tuesday. We'll see you next

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week.

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Thanks for joining us here on meta woman. Make sure to

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About the Podcast

META Woman
Weekly metaverse content - for women, by women
Meta Woman will focus on addressing the issues, opportunities, and challenges facing women in the development of the Metaverse. Top female executives and business people operating within the gaming and crypto industries bring a wide range of perspectives through regular guest appearances.