Episode 13

full
Published on:

2nd Mar 2022

13. Rock The Virtual Boat

This week's guest is Liz Moody, Partner and Chair of New Media Practice at Granderson Des Rochers LLP and Head of Content Partnerships at Hydrow. Her resume just drips with the coolest things you can possibly imagine at the intersection of gaming, music, and fitness. Liz's extensive career is a fascinating look at how we might interact with the three in the context of the Metaverse. We discuss music licensing, brand activations, a Justin Bieber Concert, Hydrow, Liteboxer, the hills of Switzerland, and more.

Transcript
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Welcome to the meta woman podcast we address the

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issues, opportunities and challenges facing women in the

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development of the metaverse the biggest revolution since the

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internet itself. Every week we bring you conversations with top

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female talent and business executives operating in the

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gaming and crypto industries. Here's your host Lindsey, the

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boss pass. The metal woman podcast starts now.

Lindsay Poss:

Hello, and welcome to the metal woman podcast part

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of the holodeck media Podcast Network. I'm your host Lindsay

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the boss pass from struggle to success recovering it all. To

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our returning listeners. Thank you so much for supporting the

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show. And for our new listeners. Welcome. I really hope you

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enjoy. I have a really awesome guest on this week. We've

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connected and spoken before about a lot of things that we

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are mutually interested in. So I'm really excited for this

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episode. A lot of it will talk a lot about gaming and fitness

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which for those of you have listened before, you've heard me

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brag several times about my career as a college athlete,

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brag, make fun of myself, whatever. I'm not sure I'm

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washed up now. So I love hearing about new fitness trends,

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different ways to get into fitness. So we'll be talking

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about that a little bit. That's just my own excitement coming

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through. We have plenty other things to talk about. I would

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love to give a warm welcome to Liz moody, who is partner and

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the chair of new media practice at Granderson Desrochers I

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realized I've never said that out loud. Okay. Desrochers and

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she's also Head of Content partnerships at hydro, which, if

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any of you are also big podcast fans, there's been a lot of ads

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for hydro in my feeds lately. Liz specializes in new media and

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tech, and welcome to the show. So excited to have you. To start

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if you could just introduce yourself, give a couple

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sentences background, a little bit of your story, I would love

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for you to share.

Unknown:

Thank you, Lindsay. I'm so excited to be here. I'm

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excited to talk about the area, all of these areas because

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they're close to my heart. I spend my time advising mostly

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startups. And in the new media, digital music space, I've been

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working in digital music and video for close to 20 years,

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both in private practice like I am now and also in house. At

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some companies like Pandora and YouTube in the past, I also had

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a synthesis, working in business development at a health and

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fitness startup. So the area merging both gaming and music,

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and fitness and music is something that's incredibly

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interesting to me. Like You I used to be an athlete, and I

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can't imagine working out without music. So I think

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there's there's a ton of opportunity for artists in the

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music industry to explore both in gaming and in in the fitness

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world. And I'm excited to talk more about it. Yes,

Lindsay Poss:

me too, truly. So I know you already briefly

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mentioned this, but you do have an extensive background in

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music. To start, I want to know more about how you think about

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new experiences through music and gaming. And what gaming

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provides that is kind of different than how we've

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consumed music before. Or just what you're thinking about with

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exploring this kind of gaming Avenue and this crossover with

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music fitness. I think it's a very natural crossover. But what

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are you thinking about with gaming? How are you approaching

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that,

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you know, a lot of the music consumption experiences

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we've had to date are primarily leaned back, let's say you're on

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Spotify or Apple Music You might spend or, or even putting your

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your vinyl record in, you might kind of decide what music you

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want to listen to for the first 15 minutes. And then you kind of

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drift off and start doing other things. And most most people

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spend about 75% of their music, kind of in a more of a leanback

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experience. And I think where gaming comes in, we're gonna see

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a lot of changes with gaming and AR and VR experiences with music

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is that it becomes a lot more interactive. The, in some,

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sometimes the music becomes a part of the game. So there is

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that element of a leanback experience. But sometimes

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there's a there, you're really leaning forward, you're

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interacting with the experience, you're interacting with the

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artist, your age, able to actually feel like you're part

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of the show, if it's a live event. and I were just really at

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the beginning stages of seeing some of that happening. I think

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it's pretty fun time right now.

Lindsay Poss:

Completely agree. And, you know, we've come a long

Lindsay Poss:

way since that sort of first ish concert. I'm not sure if this is

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actually the first or nobody quote me on it. But the first

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one I sort of remember being a huge experience was the

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marshmallow concert. And I feel like that wasn't terribly long

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ago, but we've just seen kind of an explosion in growth and

Lindsay Poss:

interest for those more engaging experiences. When you talk about

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lean back versus lean forward. I think there's been a lot of

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movement towards that and the entertainment industry as a

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whole because of gaming and even sport content, all of that. So

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I, those two phrases I, I sort of hear in comparison a lot. And

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with this kind of growth, are you having companies approached

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you to work their experience into gaming? Or are you kind of

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approaching companies and saying, Hey, do you have a

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really cool product? Let's work it into gaming, I'm guessing

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it's kind of a mix. But what I'm trying to get at is to see if

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companies are actually also forward thinking about how

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people are consuming their content. And if you're working

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towards different partnerships and things of that nature with

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with clients that you're either approaching or approaching you.

Unknown:

Yeah, you're right. It's a little bit of, of both.

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But I what I'm finding now, maybe more than ever before, is

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new types of gaming companies coming and saying, We have to

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find a way to integrate music into our games, they're seeing

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that their user base really wants music. Some of that is

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likely because of the shift and attention in attention, right,

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games are now taking up a huge part of especially Gen Z's time,

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they're spending more time in video games, which maybe means

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less time listening to music without a video experience. But

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it also means that's where they're discovering music. So

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there's opportunity both for the gaming companies, and for

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artists, record labels, and music publishers to kind of get

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their music is a game. So what's what's happening right now is I

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think, over over time, it was so hard to license music for use in

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video games, that, you know, maybe the game developers

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weren't trying as much. And now they're seeing there's a lot

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more interest from the music industry and doing that. The

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music industry is seeing the value of getting some of their,

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you know, music into games, I think in particular, artists are

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getting excited about it, a lot of artists, you know, play games

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and see the value. And they're, they're excited about some of

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the newer gaming tech, like a lot of the you mentioned the

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marshmallows show. And there's there are more and more as you

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kind of alluded to there more and more music centric gaming

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experiences, particularly around live events, like Avatar based

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live events, or augmented reality events, some of which

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I've been working on pretty closely. And I think we'll see

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more and more of that, especially the move to web 3.0

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experiences. But also, just as the tech is changing, it's

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getting so much easier to create some of these experiences.

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Whereas before, you know, even just a year and a half ago, it

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was expensive to produce that Marshmallow Show or, or it took

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a lot more production time coding and create video creation

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specialists in the space. And now we'll see over the next six

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to nine months that individual creators can likely create

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similar experiences by just using an iPhone or you know it,

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the tech is so much easier. So I think it's really kind of in the

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early days of a lot of this, like I was saying it's going to

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be driven a lot by tech. But yeah, I think there are a number

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of different ways that that video games and web 3.0

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experiences want to include music. Some of some of what I'm

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seeing is in sort of radio style experiences. Some of what we're

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seeing out there right now are sort of these game emotes where

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you can personalize your experience and create your own.

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Kind of it's kind of like the days of ring tones where you can

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create your own sounds. And incorporate that into an event

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that your irritate you're taking place in the game. So maybe I

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just jumped off a cliff in the game. And I want to show all of

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my friends how cool that was. And instead of just having an

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audio sound that the game has our game developers already

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programmed in, I want to have a popular song that I love. So

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that's a cool other option for games to integrate music. And

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then of course, there's their the live events right there the

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avatar based and similar live events that are becoming more

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and more interactive. And those are, those are becoming

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something that a lot of artists just want to be a part of.

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Because once they do it once they kind of get hooked. That's

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a really fun experience for them to see. That's so cool.

Lindsay Poss:

When you said the audio tag I actually I totally

Lindsay Poss:

forgotten about the callback noises that we used to have. I

Lindsay Poss:

can't I can't even forgetting how it worked. But it was it was

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if you're waiting for our friend to pick up a play song.

Unknown:

Yeah, exactly. In

Lindsay Poss:

between that and you know, there was always the

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time When you were trying to perfectly record a ringtone to a

Lindsay Poss:

song, and it would come on the radio and it was it was

Lindsay Poss:

everybody in the car immediately shut up, I have to record my

Lindsay Poss:

ringtone. Man, I forgot about all of that. And, yeah, that's

Lindsay Poss:

so funny to kind of think about those different little audio

Lindsay Poss:

tags or audio expressions. And I don't feel as if there's been a

Lindsay Poss:

ton of, I don't know, as someone who grew up with, you know, ring

Lindsay Poss:

tones and callback tones. I don't feel as if there's been a

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ton of opportunity to explore that quite yet in on social

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media and in different user generated content. I don't know

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are you? Are you seeing artists become more interest or anyone

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just artists, but people content creators, whatever companies

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interested in creating more kind of audio tag or sound based?

Lindsay Poss:

Struggling to phrase this question, but sound identifiers

Lindsay Poss:

maybe?

Unknown:

Yeah, I mean, for me, the has launched a couple of

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them a couple of examples, and they're calling them emotes,

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where they, you know, they kind of personalize the artist

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experience with a short snippet of a sound that the user can

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purchase. I'm working on a b2b business now that's that we've

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been working pretty hard across the music industry licensing

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music for use in all various games. And they're both there's

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a radio option as well as this game tone option, where the user

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can kind of like personalize their own experience in the

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game. So it's pretty cool, I think there's going to be more

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and more of that as the tech becomes a lot easier. The way it

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works is for the consumer, you kind of you can go on and create

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your basically find a popular song that you love. And similar

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the way you might create a video using tick tock you know, the

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scrubber on tick tock, you can use the tech through the

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platform to create a a short, you know, 20/32 snippet that

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tells your friends who you are, and

Lindsay Poss:

make everyone in the car Shut up real quick. A

Lindsay Poss:

little better these days. He said that but game tones. So

Lindsay Poss:

that's that's a term familiar with emotes. And that's kind of

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a mean emojis at this point are just another form of language,

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very visual language. But I game tones is something that I

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haven't heard of or thought of. So that's going to be just a

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different layer of the whole experience that I definitely

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have not thought about yet. That's really cool.

Unknown:

Yeah, I'm excited to see the market more. So you

Lindsay Poss:

got a little bit into the different activations

Lindsay Poss:

you've done and all that. But is there anything that you've

Lindsay Poss:

worked on, that's been your favorite or has stood out to

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you? I suppose it could also stand out to you for a bad

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reason. But there's been a lot since the first marshmallow

Lindsay Poss:

concert. So what are the things that have caught your attention

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or that you've enjoyed working on?

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So one of the companies I work with is wave XR, which

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has a an avatar based live lives experience. Most recently, we

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did a live show with Justin Bieber, which was super fun. It

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was really I think it's fun for me every single time we do one

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of those shows to see the artists and their fans

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connecting. Of course, it got more popular as the pandemic hit

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and, and people were at home. But I think, you know, that,

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that type of an interactive experience that feels like a

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video game, at the same time as a live concert is really

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interesting. And I don't think that's going to go away. It's

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just so much fun, even if you actually aren't a huge fan of

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that artist to to be asked questions during the, the show

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to have to kind of interact with the, the experience. You know,

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you're at your laptop watching a show. And the artists asks, What

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do you want to see next, when you want the experience to look

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like and you vote, and you become part of it, or you can

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actually become part of what's called a dance party. So you're

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up on a screen and the artist can see you and they can dance

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with you. And that's actually an experience it's really hard to

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get even in person right? A lot of fans. I mean, they don't have

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the access to their favorite artists by maybe having to spend

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a ton of money on a VIP backstage, very few people that

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can do that. Whereas going to a wave show and getting on a you

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know, the waiver cam and dancing with the artists so that they

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can see you is incredible experience that you can always

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even get in real life. So that's one of the things I'm excited

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about because I feel like there's a lot of interaction and

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ability For fans and artists to connect in a way that they can

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always do even in real life. That's one of the things Yeah,

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that's

Lindsay Poss:

really neat.

Unknown:

I guess the other recent thing that I'm working on

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that I'm really excited about hasn't launched yet. It's a b2b

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service called stinger. That is, I met someone I was just talking

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about where I was mentioning that we're licensing music for

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use in all video games. So they'll work with video game

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developers across all different types of video games to make

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music available, whether it's through like a game phone, or

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through radio station. So that it's it's kind of a nice, easy

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plug and play solution for a lot of developers that maybe don't

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have the wherewithal ago, negotiate with all the record

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labels and all the music publishers, it's a pretty

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complicated process takes sometimes it takes a year to do.

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So. That's been a lot of challenge putting together I

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feel like it's been quite a rewarding process, getting it

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done, and it'll be fun to see it launched. Those are both Sony,

Lindsay Poss:

have you noticed? I mean, you did again, you

Lindsay Poss:

briefly mentioned this, but just to put a finer, finer point on

Lindsay Poss:

it. How have you seen things changed because of the pandemic,

Lindsay Poss:

and the interest change? And the the strategy change? I'm

Lindsay Poss:

guessing things like wave, and especially the success that they

Lindsay Poss:

had with the Justin Bieber concert, means a lot more people

Lindsay Poss:

are reaching out to you about it, or wanting to get involved.

Unknown:

Yeah, there's, there's certainly a lot more focus on

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all kinds of entertainment experiences that you can, you

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can do from home, right? I think what I'm finding, as things have

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opened up, there's a bit of a shift, you know, during the

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pandemic, everybody, especially at the beginning, when we were

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all locked down through a lot of artists that were kind of just

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maybe informally live streaming from home, too. And that was fun

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for a little while. I don't know that that is the experience that

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we're all going to be searching for in the long run. But on the

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other hand, the experience like what wave delivers that we just

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as I just described, and many others out there, where you're

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getting into the metaverse and and you're really interacting

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with the artist, but also with the whole experience of the

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show. You see maybe what Roblox has done. They just had a big

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David Guetta experience over the weekend, and they had 21 pilots

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a month or so go on there, too, I guess it was a while ago now.

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But it's just really fun. They're not just, you know, one

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hour experiences, but often open. The shows open over the

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course of a weekend or maybe even a couple of weeks, so that

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you can go in there and you feel like you're playing a video

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game. But then you also feel you're watching a concert. So

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it's it's kind of a blend of both worlds that I didn't see

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before the pandemic, I think what the pandemic has done is

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really draw more attention to the experiences, but also helped

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all of these companies get more attention, more resources and

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engagement from fans so that they can grow faster.

Lindsay Poss:

This is sort of this is definitely an opinion

Lindsay Poss:

based question. But when do you think that we will cease to

Lindsay Poss:

because I think that the association with the word gaming

Lindsay Poss:

is a lot different than when we talk about virtual concerts,

Lindsay Poss:

right? I think that people are thinking purely of experiences.

Lindsay Poss:

They're not necessarily thinking like, I am gaming right now,

Lindsay Poss:

when I am attending a virtual concert, even if it is in a

Lindsay Poss:

platform called or in a platform like Roblox or fortnight. I

Lindsay Poss:

think having a completely separate platform like wave sort

Lindsay Poss:

of helps divorce those associations between I'm gaming

Lindsay Poss:

right now. Versus I'm in a live experience right now virtually.

Lindsay Poss:

But do you when you think about the metaverse and the future?

Lindsay Poss:

And all the future tech, all of this stuff? Are you thinking

Lindsay Poss:

about it as in this as part of the gaming industry? Or is this?

Lindsay Poss:

You know, gaming is a bubble inside of this industry? It's

Lindsay Poss:

what we might call it now. But it's going to grow into a much

Lindsay Poss:

larger industry more more inclusive of different

Lindsay Poss:

entertainment or different life experience of platforms and

Lindsay Poss:

opportunities.

Unknown:

I really think it's the latter. I think the gaming

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industry is leading us all into this space, perhaps because a

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lot of the people in the gaming industry have had the early

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experience of how to create the the interactivity to create the

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design experiences. But what's happening now is it's I see it

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hitting more, I guess the mainstream people who weren't

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always playing video games, but want those interactive

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experiences. I mean, you look at not just what wave is doing but

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many others are looking at integrating into their

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metaverse. Not just kind of this internet gaming experience, but

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recreating a new world so that you see fashion brands in there.

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You see, I can go by car, I can buy land, of course. And I can

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of course the concert and music. So there's there's music as

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well, only one element. There's the video game pieces almost

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becoming less relevant because it's just instantly the video

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gaming industry kind of helped us into this space. But I don't

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really see the metaverse as being limited to a video game

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experience. It's much much broader than that. It's when you

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look at like what decentraland is doing. It's really recreating

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the real world in a different experience. Right. exciting and

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scary at the same time.

Lindsay Poss:

Totally agree on on all friends there. When we

Lindsay Poss:

talk about how you're developing these opportunities and the

Lindsay Poss:

creative process. How are you? How is it comparing between the

Lindsay Poss:

real world and these? Now? digital platforms are similar?

Lindsay Poss:

What are the kind of similarities differences?

Unknown:

That kind of thing? It's interesting, because you

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know, as as a lawyer, I get a lot of questions that assume

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things are really different in the metaverse and I think we're

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seeing that they aren't that, you know, laws still apply even

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if it happens online versus in the real world. It's it's very

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early days, especially of web 3.0. And, and people buying and

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selling NF T's and relying on blockchain experiences. So I

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think we're all still learning about where it's gonna go.

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Unfortunately, there's probably going to be some tough learning

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at the same time. But like I haven't, I think that there's,

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there's the potential is incredible. But there's so much

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that can be used and so entirely creating an entirely different

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experience. In the music space, I think where the potential is,

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is the a couple of different areas. There's the opportunity

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for fantasy, fans and artists to interact more like we talked

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about with Wave things. There's also the opportunity for artists

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to connect more with fans, by through distributing their music

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directly, maybe even financing their music production directly

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from fans in a way that they didn't have that ability to

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reach fans in sort of before web three, O and web 2.0. And now

Lindsay Poss:

and they didn't necessarily have the ability to

Lindsay Poss:

have a dance party with fans. Don't even thinking about that,

Lindsay Poss:

because I just know that middle school knew what have loved her

Lindsay Poss:

high school, however old I was privileged to have a dance party

Lindsay Poss:

with Justin Bieber back in the day.

Unknown:

Oh, gosh, it was so fun to see all of his fans just

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genuinely genuinely, like, incredibly excited to and to see

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the when he talks like response to them and can say hi to them.

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I mean, can you imagine middle school you having Justin Bieber

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say hi, directly knowing knowing your name, that's just

Lindsay Poss:

how it would be. Yeah, that's that's a whole new

Lindsay Poss:

level of, of interaction that just yeah, that's just truly not

Lindsay Poss:

possible in a huge arena with 30,000 other people. So that's

Lindsay Poss:

really, really cool. Aside from the kind of live experiences and

Lindsay Poss:

events side, you have this really, really neat and

Lindsay Poss:

interesting work in in fitness. Also, I realize, as a side note,

Lindsay Poss:

I totally overuse the word interesting. But it's difficult

Lindsay Poss:

not to when you know, I do this podcast, and I get to talk to

Lindsay Poss:

people who have just varied and very cool backgrounds. So

Lindsay Poss:

listeners out there, take a shot every time I say it, I guess.

Lindsay Poss:

But anyway, so you have this, this great background in

Lindsay Poss:

fitness, and especially with your partnership through hydro.

Lindsay Poss:

And I know that you have a couple other partnerships that I

Lindsay Poss:

would love to also talk about. But to start Can you just talk

Lindsay Poss:

about what hydro is explain how gaming and music? Gaming I think

Lindsay Poss:

of as with fitness, more of a gamified approach competing

Lindsay Poss:

against yourself that kind of gaming. But you can absolutely

Lindsay Poss:

correct me if I'm wrong on that. How gaming and fitness are

Lindsay Poss:

fitting in with the hydro platform. We're starting to see

Lindsay Poss:

workout programs where all three are incorporated, like I said,

Lindsay Poss:

gaming and talk about tracking and competition and all that

Lindsay Poss:

stuff. And music is an obvious obvious go along with any

Lindsay Poss:

fitness program. So yeah, can you just tell me a little more

Lindsay Poss:

about about all that.

Unknown:

Yeah, I mean, the easiest way on a fundamental

Unknown:

sort of basic level to describe what Hydra was doing is that

Unknown:

it's a peloton style experience for rowing. Where and that may

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be where the similarities end. It is a gorgeously designed

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rowing machine. But the cool thing about hydro is that your

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instructors are actually on the water. So really is it truly

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virtual experience. Your you may be one day in Switzerland, well,

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rowing together with your instructor through these

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gorgeous like with mountains all over you. And the next day you

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might be in LA. And the next day you might be in Florida, and

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they're taking you with them on this experience. There are a lot

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of similarities to peloton in the sense that there's you can

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join your friends and compete with them at the same time, you

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can either you can compete with yourself, like he said, or you

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can you know, race against the clock race against the others

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who are who are doing the same workout. They have some

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challenges that they that Hydras been releasing them on social

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media has been really fun to watch, even just the hydro

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athletes competing with each other, many of them, our former,

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a couple of them that are former Olympic athletes, a couple that

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are actually were competing in the Olympics last year, so are

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still Olympic athletes, they're really high quality, high level

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athletes that have a great way of connecting directly with

Unknown:

their I wouldn't say fans in addition to just the you know

Unknown:

the customers, but all of this can happen while you're sitting

Unknown:

in the comfort of your home. So that's kind of a, that's kind of

Unknown:

cool. It's, it's a way to improve your fitness level

Unknown:

without even feeling like it. And I think that's where as we

Unknown:

start talking more about the interaction of fitness in the

Unknown:

gaming experience, why I think it's going to stick and why I

Unknown:

think it's so exciting. You can get lost in the world of

Unknown:

traveling around, you know, you're up in Florida while

Unknown:

you're on your rowing machine and forget that you're actually

Unknown:

exercising. Sometimes, you can kind of set it the way you want

Unknown:

it to work if you want to feel like you're in a gym class,

Unknown:

because you like that type of experience. That's cool. If you

Unknown:

want to just kind of zone out and row along with some music

Unknown:

and a cool, beautiful experience, you can do that too.

Unknown:

And I think both with hydro and with other kind of fitness meets

Unknown:

gaming experiences, especially in VR, what I'm finding both as

Unknown:

a user and also just from talking to looking at engagement

Unknown:

on those platforms, it's It's incredible how much more engaged

Unknown:

people are than they might be at the gym. Because it feels like

Unknown:

you're playing a game It feels like you're playing you know,

Unknown:

you're you're in the middle of a video game and you don't even

Unknown:

notice that you're working out yet at the same time like hydro

Unknown:

exercises, something like 85% of the muscles in your body. So

Unknown:

it's an awesome workout. That's really neat.

Lindsay Poss:

I didn't realize that this kind of travel element

Lindsay Poss:

was so big in it to that there's so many real world experiences

Lindsay Poss:

kind of incorporated. I feel like that's kind of a unique

Lindsay Poss:

Well, I'm not sure I'm not I candidly don't own fitness

Lindsay Poss:

device in my home. peloton hydro, any of them. But yeah,

Lindsay Poss:

how much is the kind of travel or see other places element? a

Lindsay Poss:

selling point or have? Yeah, I just have thought about that.

Lindsay Poss:

Tell me more about

Unknown:

that. It's interesting, because I think some of it

Unknown:

happened because they were the hydro team is based in Boston,

Unknown:

where it's cold, and maybe not the most ideal place to work out

Unknown:

all year long. So they track the search rattling and it kind of

Unknown:

caught on. There's a lot of cool things that you can do to

Unknown:

integrate music and other experiences when you're

Unknown:

traveling to.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah, that's so neat. I had to send that about

Lindsay Poss:

rolling through the Swiss Alps or every setting that you use,

Lindsay Poss:

but now I'm thinking about it.

Unknown:

Hydro in that sense, because they're in you know,

Unknown:

production wise isn't the easiest thing as you can

Unknown:

probably imagine to be taping getting music, athletes voice

Unknown:

commentary, while they're actually growing on real water

Unknown:

in different locations. All of that comes together pretty well.

Unknown:

And they kind of it's fun to be a part of it. Yeah, that's

Lindsay Poss:

really cool. One of the other programs I know

Lindsay Poss:

that we talked about or one of the things you're working on is

Lindsay Poss:

light boxer have a different fitness VR type crossover for

Lindsay Poss:

what I what I read, and, again, I don't have any of these

Lindsay Poss:

devices But now I'm thinking about them a lot more than I did

Lindsay Poss:

light boxers in at home boxing workout that specifically

Lindsay Poss:

actually licenses music from Universal Music Group to pair

Lindsay Poss:

with high intensity workouts. So you can work out that one

Lindsay Poss:

scenes, whereas hydro seems like a very immersive, full

Lindsay Poss:

experience like boxer seems really focused on music and high

Lindsay Poss:

intensity training, which is really cool, too. I don't think

Lindsay Poss:

one is better or worse than the other. But can you tell me more

Lindsay Poss:

about about that and, and the different motivations between

Lindsay Poss:

both companies and how different companies are using tech to

Lindsay Poss:

achieve their goals. And

Unknown:

you know what that looks like? I think like boxers,

Unknown:

I mean, it's boxing. So there's naturally a different type of

Unknown:

draw and workout, they do have trainer led workouts that are

Unknown:

more like a peloton or a hydro style workout. And then they

Unknown:

have these these experiences called punch tracks where you it

Unknown:

the light box or hardware lines up, according to the kind of

Unknown:

customize it to each song. So it's almost like a combination

Unknown:

of a video game and a workout. It teaches you how to punch the

Unknown:

right way, and train, and trade and box. But it's also a lot

Unknown:

like a video game tied to music. They're really moving in the

Unknown:

direction of more gaming, slash fitness experiences together.

Unknown:

And perhaps blending the worlds of gaming and fitness more than

Unknown:

I've seen others. For example, they just announced at CES, a VR

Unknown:

product with Oculus, so that you'll be able to put on your

Unknown:

Oculus headset and have a full lightbox or workout. That's

Unknown:

pretty cool.

Lindsay Poss:

That's really cool.

Unknown:

Yeah, launched yet, but it's launching really soon. And

Unknown:

then you know, then I see both like boxer and other companies

Unknown:

out there experimenting more and more with smart hardware. So

Unknown:

imagine you've got, let's say, boxing gloves that are smart.

Unknown:

And they can tell how hard and how fast you're punching. And

Unknown:

you, you have an workout that's tied to that and getting

Unknown:

feedback all the time about your workout based on how fast you're

Unknown:

punching, and how hard you are punching. And whether you hit

Unknown:

the targets correctly. That's something that some of the

Unknown:

earlier stage even just, you know, 18 months ago or two years

Unknown:

ago, the earlier stage, connected fitness devices

Unknown:

couldn't do. But now we're seeing with a smart hardware,

Unknown:

more and more potential for feedback and for training. And

Unknown:

for virtual trainers really, I just doing a workout on my VR

Unknown:

headset recently. There's a there's a couple of them like

Unknown:

there's vid XR and some others out there. You can POCs you can

Unknown:

dance you can run. And I felt, I felt like I was playing a video

Unknown:

game to the point where I did 1820 minute workout. And then I

Unknown:

thought this is fun. I'm gonna do another one. And, you know,

Unknown:

after 45 minutes, I realized how long I had been working out it

Unknown:

was probably longer than I might have done otherwise, because it

Unknown:

just felt like a video game. It's funny, I woke up the next

Unknown:

day and I couldn't I didn't even remember that it didn't work out

Unknown:

the quantum my store. It's it's one of those things where I

Unknown:

think there's a ton of potential because of the engagement that

Unknown:

these gaming like experiences give you in your exercise when

Unknown:

you're working out.

Lindsay Poss:

That actually there's a new piece of

Lindsay Poss:

equipment. I mean, I know you've probably seen the mirror and the

Lindsay Poss:

tonal and there's another one that I just recently talked

Lindsay Poss:

about called the tempo. I don't know if you're familiar with it.

Lindsay Poss:

Yeah. Yeah. So that the idea, the thing that struck me is when

Lindsay Poss:

you said real time feedback and specific equipment, merchandise,

Lindsay Poss:

equipment, kind of same thing, specific equipment that can read

Lindsay Poss:

what you're doing that reminded me the tempo just because they

Lindsay Poss:

have the smart weights and can track. Yeah, really.

Unknown:

One of the ones I was thinking of what I was talking

Unknown:

about that and I think smart weights in and of themselves,

Unknown:

maybe didn't exist that long ago, but now they're getting

Unknown:

integrated into these at home workouts in a way where it's

Unknown:

just it's pretty cool. I mean, you can't get that kind of

Unknown:

feedback from your individual instructor necessarily, right.

Lindsay Poss:

Or at least it's very expensive to although Yeah,

Lindsay Poss:

that doesn't that's not to say that these pieces of equipment

Lindsay Poss:

aren't cheap, but it's just a different different kind of

Lindsay Poss:

cost. Oh, shoot. I had a follow up question to that and I just

Lindsay Poss:

lost it. Dang it. I was really excited. It's something I was

Lindsay Poss:

really excited to ask to you. I'll see if it comes back. I

Lindsay Poss:

know we've talked a lot about this, but oh This is actually

Lindsay Poss:

what it was perfect. I was wondering how much you've seen

Lindsay Poss:

or how much you can attribute the growth to people having to

Lindsay Poss:

be home during the pandemic? I think there's there's a lot of

Lindsay Poss:

drawbacks to this. I I think just because I think of I have

Lindsay Poss:

quite a few friends who were in the gym industry and are now

Lindsay Poss:

being able to be replaced by smart weights, maybe a little

Lindsay Poss:

bit more than they were before. But I think there's also a lot

Lindsay Poss:

more people who being stuck at home and having so much time at

Lindsay Poss:

home we've obviously seen a lot of interest in equipment and

Lindsay Poss:

tunnels mirrors Hydros peloton, so just seen all of those sell

Lindsay Poss:

like crazy. How much growth do you think is because of the

Lindsay Poss:

pandemic? How much do you think it's because we're in the year

Lindsay Poss:

2022. There's a whole different social media platform exploding

Lindsay Poss:

and Tik Tok. There's a whole new generation coming of age and

Lindsay Poss:

having income, that are digital savvy, and are more interested

Lindsay Poss:

in this type of fitness and workout routine. And how much of

Lindsay Poss:

it do you think will kind of go away? Maybe as we get into the

Lindsay Poss:

real world? So it's kind of three separate questions. But

Unknown:

yeah, you know, it's, it's hard without? I don't think

Unknown:

anybody fully knows the answer to the question, but I think one

Unknown:

thing is clear is that the pandemic really spurred on this

Unknown:

activity that might have happened anyway, but probably

Unknown:

not as quickly. Right. I mean, I, I would say, despite the fact

Unknown:

that peloton stock is suffering, and they're not selling as much,

Unknown:

I still think that the fitness experience isn't going away. And

Unknown:

you know, maybe one might argue that the reason peloton is not

Unknown:

as successful is because there are all these other competitors

Unknown:

out there that are offering alternatives. But what I found

Unknown:

is even outside of connected fitness, like

Lindsay Poss:

I was going to say alternatives that don't have Mr.

Lindsay Poss:

Big dying in the first episode. Anyways, apologize, please go

Lindsay Poss:

on.

Unknown:

It's interesting, because I see even you know,

Unknown:

yoga studios, for example, and yoga and fitness studios that

Unknown:

had approached me at the beginning of the pandemic to go

Unknown:

online as a band aid, kind of short thinking this was going to

Unknown:

be short term. And now that they've reopened their brick and

Unknown:

mortar workout studios, they're realizing actually people want

Unknown:

both. And I think what we're going to find is that the at

Unknown:

home fitness experience may not replace those brick and mortar

Unknown:

experiences for everybody. But for some people, they're just,

Unknown:

it just makes more sense, either because of where they live, or

Unknown:

because of where they're at in life. For example, like I'm a

Unknown:

mom with two kids, it's not that easy for me to go do yoga for an

Unknown:

hour and a half at the yoga studio, because it's just hard

Unknown:

to fit the time in. But I can do it at home, when I can do it at

Unknown:

home on demand when I have a few minutes. That's ideal. And I'm

Unknown:

always I'm never gonna go back to that. That other older

Unknown:

experience, especially as the online experiences become better

Unknown:

and more interactive. And you can get the feedback from the

Unknown:

instructors that maybe isn't always quite as good as in

Unknown:

person. But it's it's often good enough for a lot of people.

Unknown:

Yeah, I think that's

Lindsay Poss:

as someone who much more enjoys working at home

Lindsay Poss:

significant or working out at home, I enjoy it a lot more than

Lindsay Poss:

going into a gym. And even that's as someone who has no

Lindsay Poss:

children. I'm the I think that we have all gotten used to not

Lindsay Poss:

having to drive so many places, or walk or bus or whatever we

Lindsay Poss:

do. I think that that that time span kind of commuting to

Lindsay Poss:

different things and activities is just when you get that back,

Lindsay Poss:

it's really hard to give it up once again, it's especially when

Lindsay Poss:

you do have a family that I think it's probably even harder

Lindsay Poss:

to

Unknown:

give it up. You know, it's interesting, because even

Unknown:

before the pandemic, like when I worked at a health and fitness

Unknown:

startup, and we found that a lot of the a lot of people that were

Unknown:

doing yoga online, either weren't from big cities, so they

Unknown:

didn't have access to, you know, yoga studios. Or interestingly,

Unknown:

you know, they weren't the kind of people that maybe didn't want

Unknown:

to go experience the vibe of being in the stereotypical

Unknown:

studio. So for example, there were a lot of male athletes that

Unknown:

were being encouraged to do yoga by their, their trainers and

Unknown:

thought, though, you know this for women, I don't want to go to

Unknown:

the yoga studio. So I'm going to do it at home. I feel more

Unknown:

comfortable doing it at home. And I think that that continues

Unknown:

for regardless of the type of exercise or sport. There's

Unknown:

always going to be people that just prefer the experience at

Unknown:

home, especially as it's getting better and better and more fun.

Unknown:

I totally agree.

Lindsay Poss:

I just have one last question here before we do

Lindsay Poss:

the final segment, and this has been a really fun interview. I

Lindsay Poss:

loved hearing about from your perspective where the metaverse

Lindsay Poss:

is going because you've said your hand and no events in music

Lindsay Poss:

and entertainment and fitness. It's been really fun hearing

Lindsay Poss:

more about that. This is a woman focus show those. So we always

Lindsay Poss:

we also try to talk about principles of diversity, equity

Lindsay Poss:

inclusion. So just before we wrap up, I have to ask your

Lindsay Poss:

opinion on these things in the metaverse. How do we make sure

Lindsay Poss:

it's an equitable environment? And how have you, in your

Lindsay Poss:

experience and in your line of work, had, I don't know exactly

Lindsay Poss:

the word but had interactions with dei principles and where

Lindsay Poss:

it's going, and you've been in, in very popular industries for a

Lindsay Poss:

long time. So I'm hoping that you'll say it's getting better.

Lindsay Poss:

But I don't want to speak for you there.

Unknown:

It's something I think a lot about especially, I feel

Unknown:

like that's the kind of thing that you think more and more

Unknown:

about as you as you get older, and kind of look back at how

Unknown:

things have changed. I remember when I was just getting started

Unknown:

in my career, I thought, Oh, I'm not gonna have to worry about

Unknown:

all these problems that the women before me worried about.

Unknown:

And I will say it's getting better. But it's not where I

Unknown:

thought it was going to be when I was younger. I think there are

Unknown:

certainly some industries like tech and gaming in particular,

Unknown:

that tend to still be very much male dominated. And still used

Unknown:

to working. Most of the time, I fought with men, and do used to

Unknown:

it like I don't even notice, right. But what I'm finding more

Unknown:

and more is that starting that's it is changing. And I think the

Unknown:

way to make it changes to, for us all to get more involved,

Unknown:

right? If we look at the gaming industry, I think traditionally

Unknown:

it was so male oriented, because maybe the guys were the ones

Unknown:

that were excited about it. Or maybe women were interested in

Unknown:

games but not developing themselves. So they didn't,

Unknown:

there weren't the games that the women wanted to play. In I it's

Unknown:

interesting, because I'm going to analogize to my teenage kids,

Unknown:

because I've got a boy and a girl and like my daughter will

Unknown:

be playing with Animal Crossing and create, like amazing

Unknown:

experiences come to her home and like connect with her friends

Unknown:

and like design things on when she was younger, she'd be

Unknown:

designing amazing houses on on Minecraft. And I see like my son

Unknown:

stereotype, stereotyping a little bit, but interacting with

Unknown:

different video games and different experience different

Unknown:

ways. So some of this is like, let's get women more involved in

Unknown:

creating the experiences that work not just for, you know, not

Unknown:

just for guys and boys, but for all of us. Because I think that,

Unknown:

especially as we move to the metaverse to recreate maybe a

Unknown:

whole world, we absolutely have to have all genders, the heart

Unknown:

of it, and all different types of people or it's not going to

Unknown:

be it's not going to be it's not gonna work, in my opinion. But I

Unknown:

do think it's right in the change. I think that there's a

Unknown:

most of the companies in this space are working very hard to

Unknown:

make sure that they're in increasing diversity, hiring

Unknown:

more women, and also just, you know, increasing diversity

Unknown:

across ways in all different areas. So it's a slow process,

Unknown:

but I think it's a slow process, not necessarily because it was

Unknown:

intentional, but just because like minded people tend to work

Unknown:

together and, and hire people that are like them. And it

Unknown:

doesn't have to be something that's thought about

Unknown:

proactively. Because when you have a company made up of a lot

Unknown:

of gamer guys, they're going to hire their friends, unless

Unknown:

they're thinking, How do I get out of this experience? So it

Unknown:

does take a little bit of extra work to say, oh, I want to hire

Unknown:

more women because I want their opinion. And I want them to add

Unknown:

to the culture of the company. And maybe even beyond that I

Unknown:

want them to add to the creation of the worlds that I'm working

Unknown:

on. So

Lindsay Poss:

yeah, it definitely takes a lot of

Lindsay Poss:

intention to step outside of your own bubble. I think that

Lindsay Poss:

maybe a lot of us are re examining what that means.

Lindsay Poss:

Certainly, people at the top bar Yeah. So right before we get

Lindsay Poss:

into our last segment, I want to do a quick little summary of

Lindsay Poss:

some of the stuff we talked about. First thing we lead off

Lindsay Poss:

is off with was lean back versus lean forward experiences.

Lindsay Poss:

Companies looking to get into heightened fan crossovers, being

Lindsay Poss:

able to dancing or interact or have the fans help you shape the

Lindsay Poss:

show. It's really more of a lean forward experience than

Lindsay Poss:

traditional consumption just kind of passive. We talked about

Lindsay Poss:

how gaming has led us into the metaverse, but it won't

Lindsay Poss:

necessarily be the only thing in the metaverse and eventually, we

Lindsay Poss:

will be doing several things in there that have nothing to do

Lindsay Poss:

with maybe what we traditionally think of as gaming. But gaming

Lindsay Poss:

has been a way to get really comfortable and familiar with

Lindsay Poss:

the tech and the tools and help us push further. get more into

Lindsay Poss:

better first ideas. And the hydro is new things super cool

Lindsay Poss:

combines all kinds of things including travel, which I think

Lindsay Poss:

is a really unique element. And like boxer is one of the the

Lindsay Poss:

fitness things being offered right now that is that that kind

Lindsay Poss:

of perfect crossover between working out on music, I would

Lindsay Poss:

say. So different companies completely different approaches,

Lindsay Poss:

do really cool ways to get into fitness, depending on what

Lindsay Poss:

you're looking for. When it comes to fitness meets gaming

Lindsay Poss:

and VR and AR experiences, people can be more engaged than

Lindsay Poss:

when they're at the gym, you can get all kinds of different

Lindsay Poss:

experiences, the pandemic probably helps speed up some of

Lindsay Poss:

that activity and some of the interest in that. And it also

Lindsay Poss:

helps with people who prefer at home activities like myself. And

Lindsay Poss:

the last thing we talked about was that need to get more people

Lindsay Poss:

involved in creating experiences for everyone, in order to

Lindsay Poss:

incorporate everyone into the metaverse that it takes, takes

Lindsay Poss:

kind of courage or acknowledgement or some thought

Lindsay Poss:

to step outside of your own kind of biases, or hiring practices

Lindsay Poss:

and get out there and pick someone who's a little different

Lindsay Poss:

than you. But that it seems like companies are working hard to

Lindsay Poss:

try to improve those kinds of things. So for our last segment

Lindsay Poss:

to wrap up the show, I like to ask every guest who comes on the

Lindsay Poss:

very same question, just to kind of chance to look back at your

Lindsay Poss:

career, look back at the things you've done. And we call it the

Lindsay Poss:

moment of reflection, just for that purpose. So what is one

Lindsay Poss:

thing you would like to tell your younger self about getting

Lindsay Poss:

into the gaming slash tech industry and being successful?

Unknown:

Good question. I think that one of the things that I

Unknown:

that is important for everyone as they're getting into their

Unknown:

career, and that I would have really encouraged my younger

Unknown:

self, is make sure that you're excited and engaged and really

Unknown:

feel in your heart, love for what you do, because then it

Unknown:

doesn't feel like a job anymore. And that's kind of I'm lucky

Unknown:

that I ended up going in that direction with my career. I feel

Unknown:

like it's incredible time right now, for innovation. I got into

Unknown:

music like right after Napster. And I keep saying that it feels

Unknown:

like that time where there's so much disruption. But there's

Unknown:

also just so much excitement and focus on on what's happening in

Unknown:

the metaverse and in the areas that are tied to the metaverse.

Unknown:

So I guess the answer is, love what you do in it in a very sort

Unknown:

of it. We hear that a lot, but in a way that you're

Unknown:

intellectually and emotionally excited about what you do. Well,

Unknown:

I

Lindsay Poss:

certainly do love hosting this podcast. I'm happy

Lindsay Poss:

to take that advice. Because it's been, it's been a lot of

Lindsay Poss:

fun. This has been such a fun conversation. You're just

Lindsay Poss:

working on so many really really truly neat things. So with that

Lindsay Poss:

in mind, where can people find you or follow your work if you

Lindsay Poss:

want to be found or followed?

Unknown:

Well, I'm not the most engaged on on Twitter in social,

Unknown:

but I'm on LinkedIn, and I am EJ MTG on Twitter. I can also be

Unknown:

found at Granderson DuroStar. As you mentioned, for those that

Unknown:

want to reach out to me they're

Lindsay Poss:

perfect also Desrochers spelled desse

Lindsay Poss:

rochers. In case you guys were wondering, I there was a name I

Lindsay Poss:

had only read until introducing you and then I thought oh crap,

Lindsay Poss:

I hope I guess correctly. For our listeners, be sure to check

Lindsay Poss:

out other holodeck media podcasts, including metal

Lindsay Poss:

business for all the metaverse finance stories you could ever

Lindsay Poss:

want, and business of esports for interviews with industry

Lindsay Poss:

leaders. You can catch me Wednesday nights on the business

Lindsay Poss:

of esports live after show and you can catch this podcast and

Lindsay Poss:

your feed every Tuesday. We will see you next week.

Unknown:

Thanks for joining us here on meta woman. Make sure to

Unknown:

subscribe to this podcast everywhere you get your

Unknown:

podcasts, leave a five star review and tell your friends

Unknown:

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About the Podcast

META Woman
Weekly metaverse content - for women, by women
Meta Woman will focus on addressing the issues, opportunities, and challenges facing women in the development of the Metaverse. Top female executives and business people operating within the gaming and crypto industries bring a wide range of perspectives through regular guest appearances.